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The Deumer oval crimp PAB... missing link finally found!

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    #46
    Browsing a little bit i found the attached GAB described as "early Wilhelm Deumer" but as we can see it features the same catch as i showed it in post 31 -34 directly soldered on the badge itself.

    And now?

    Is it still for sure a Wilhelm Deumer?

    Based on this thread i've learned that a true Deumer needs a block hinge + catch + half-moon catchplatte to be a Deumer and so this badge badge can't be a Deumer anymore ....
    Attached Files
    Best regards, Andreas

    ______
    The Wound Badge of 1939
    www.vwa1939.com
    The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
    www.ek1939.com

    Comment

      #47
      Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post
      Browsing a little bit i found the attached GAB described as "early Wilhelm Deumer" but as we can see it features the same catch as i showed it in post 31 -34 directly soldered on the badge itself.

      And now?

      Is it still for sure a Wilhelm Deumer?

      Based on this thread i've learned that a true Deumer needs a block hinge + catch + half-moon catchplatte to be a Deumer and so this badge badge can't be a Deumer anymore ....
      Hi Andreas

      It appears to be the first time since you let your eye on an early tombak Deumer GAB

      These early BM badges in most of the cases come with a straight on soldered catches, this was never the problem. This was the same for IAB and PAB! If you look at the hollow zink Deumer pieces which followed on the BM production you'll start seeing this cut off catch plate because it needed to fit on the more fragile zink body.
      Kind regards,
      Giel

      Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

      Comment

        #48
        Hi Giel,

        may i remind you of your own words:

        Show me an other catch like this which is not of a Deumer piece please.
        As answer i showed you 4 different makers using your "Deumer" setup. Than you said that i misunderstood you because the "half-moon" catchplate is the key-detail to seperate between Deumer using this style of catch and my 4 makers.

        Now we have a GAB without the catchplate and using the exakt setup combo like f.e. Grossmann but it is still - for sure - a Deumer. How?

        I think you should decide which kind of setup combo you use to link a unmarked badge to Deumer or?

        Funny even if a badge doesn't fit your own made linking rules of setups it is still the maker you want to see

        And doing the soldering on a zink badge is not the case ... we have enough of zink badges outthere where it's maker proved that they are able to solder the catch directly on the badge without a plate but anyway the chaotic dot badge, the Brehmer and the Grossmann badge are made out of tombak too - so we have 3 more firms using the same setup as Deumer for tombak production and with the skill to solder them directly on the badge.
        Last edited by Andreas Klein; 04-29-2014, 09:06 AM.
        Best regards, Andreas

        ______
        The Wound Badge of 1939
        www.vwa1939.com
        The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
        www.ek1939.com

        Comment

          #49
          I already commented on your respond on my own words. I was wrong with that simplification. What you miss here is the evolution of the catch plate in the Deumer time line. There was no need to cut it in the beginning. There was need to cut it later, to fit the narrow hollow wreath. The PAB initially posted by me is the proof they already had the hollow badges else they wouldn't cut off that plate. It was a left over catch they put on there.
          Kind regards,
          Giel

          Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/

          Comment

            #50
            please Giel show us the waterproof Deumer Timeline! You mean with the Daisy 2?

            Comment

              #51
              I will continue where I left off (from post #30)... Pictured in the middle is yet another bronze PAB, that's virtually the same as the one I showed earlier in Post #20-23 and 30. Notice the hardware.
              **Note: There's an oval shaped wrap around hinge to the PAB in the middle, but the PAB (with the halfmoon plate), shares the same crimp-style hinge area, as the IAB to the extreme left.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by Panzercracker; 04-30-2014, 08:25 PM.

              Comment

                #52
                Now here's the frontside of the two PABs in bronze. The one on the right is the piece I showed earlier, with the replaced pin. Intersting no?

                --Ken
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #53
                  ...a closer l@@ky at the hinge on the IAB and the bronze PAB, with the replaced pin.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Panzercracker; 04-30-2014, 08:46 PM.

                  Comment

                    #54
                    Now here's the front of that IAB...
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #55
                      ...and a close-up of the oval "wrap-around" hinge, over the hinge crimp, on the bronze PAB, without the replaced pin.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #56
                        ...interesting again no?

                        --Ken
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #57
                          Ken, thanks for the answer, BUT i asked clear Giel, so this is the "DEUMER" - Timeline for sure?

                          Comment

                            #58
                            Found a nice thread from 2011 with a good end-post from Graeme here:

                            " Zinc daisys are quite common, so they likely produced many badges. I think if the design was not pleasing, they would have changed it well before producing so many, and they had the opportunity to change the design while they were making hollow zincers. The likelihood is that if Deumer is the daisy maker and changed the design so radically, I would have expected to see a change of design in the hollow zincer.
                            Now even if they did change the design, when looking into this, there is another badge that appears to have gone through the same sequence. The GAB. The solid GAB is definitely linked to the solid IAB , and the GAB has been found in Deumer marked packets also. So two badges completely redesigned at the solid stage? Something is not right here, with this “Deumer made everything situation” we appear to have at the moment. Maybe the GAB link from hollow to solid is not correct either.


                            As I have mentioned already, I don’t have any new answers and probably more questions, but it might be worth looking at this whole “Deumer” timeline from the point where the solid zincers start. Maybe Deumer made the packeted awards we have seen, and possibly the oval crimp badges and any related to these, and just maybe the “daisy” was not Deumer.

                            Lets recap the daisy/Deumer connection :-
                            L/11 style catches, a group of what looked like badly struck PABs found in Ludenscheid, a picture in the Deumer catalogue, that resembles a daisy.
                            I believe there may be other evidence not listed above ( It is late here and I am tired). Please list any evidence that I have not.


                            I think when this info was brought to light, it was classed as still not conclusive. A couple of points I would raise regarding the connection of the daisy to Deumer are :-
                            It may be the case that Deumer did make the daisy, but keep in mind that when connections are made to companies, much guesswork takes place, and less than impressive evidence quite often is used to back up the initial evidence.
                            The Deumer catalogue, does have a PAB in it that does resemble the daisy PAB, but the IAB and GAB sitting on the same page, imo, do not resemble what are believed to be daisy IABs and GABs. To take the PAB picture seriously you would have to have all badges looking accurate imo.
                            The daisy postcard in the PAB book in the daisy chapter, does indeed look like a daisy PAB, but I do not recall seeing any mention of Ludenscheid or Deumer on that card. In fact the rest of the postcard series do not appear to show daisy or Deumer products.

                            I would be leaning to option 2 or 3 at this time, but as I said I am not sure which, although Deumer making the packeted awards is intriguing…"


                            http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...AB+hollow+zinc

                            Comment

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post
                              Correct me if i'm wrong ... in the first version of their catalog Deumer had no U-Boat badge included. After they were allowed to produce it they were proud to show it to their possible customers and made a newsletter in which they showed their very own interpretation of the U-Boat badge. This picture is perfect and you can easily spot details of the real badge on it.

                              So far so good ...
                              Hi Andreas,

                              Sorry if I'm briefly going off topic in this thread, but I'm really interested in that newsletter you mentioned. Do you have a copy of that newsletter picturing the Deumer U-Boat? All I have is the later catalog page with their U-Boat picture in it, but I'd love to see that newsletter.

                              Best regards,
                              ---Norm

                              Comment

                                #60
                                Hi Norm,

                                it's made like a page of the catalog. To me it seems that it was given out to customers as addon who allready had a version of the catalog without the page included. There is no extra information on it beside price and order number.
                                Best regards, Andreas

                                ______
                                The Wound Badge of 1939
                                www.vwa1939.com
                                The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
                                www.ek1939.com

                                Comment

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