The Deumer oval crimp PAB... missing link finally found!

[Andreas Klein]

Show me an other catch like this which is not of a Deumer piece please.

How about Steinhauer & Lück:

[Andreas Klein]

Show me an other catch like this which is not of a Deumer piece please.

or Gustav Brehmer

[Andreas Klein]

Show me an other catch like this which is not of a Deumer piece please.

or Grossmann

[Andreas Klein]

Show me an other catch like this which is not of a Deumer piece please.

or the unknown chaotic dot pattern maker

[Panzercracker]

But, do your wound badges share the same characteristics from the front? The PABs I've shown appear to have a consistent progression, as well as obverse "design". I have collected a few wound badges, so I know a "Klein" will look a lot different from a "Luck". Anyway, I suppose both sides will eventually say "take it or leave it" for now, without written proof etc right? Don't want to bash the "flat catch" spread, but perhaps a closer looky at the fronts, "side to side", of the wound badges you show. Can you please put some effort in keeping them side to side like I did Andreas.


--Ken

[PKAliebhaber]

sure this are the same catches! good work! So catch also isnt something unikum, not something special, and now?
Giel in the most cases you can never name a maker by hardware. So on all from you namend badges just can be maked by Deumer? I dont think its that easy.
Now maybe i can ask you a question nobody wanted to answer on the other Deumer thread. You are one the the guys name Daisy 2 to Deumer - clear - like thread start here, but WHY?

Thanks for answer

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Ken, I didn't say the badge you show was a repro, just that it might be and I was unsure about it. No doubt that the pin is not original, so we can both agree on that. The badge itself looks OK, just a little soft on the edges and also the base metal looks odd, but that could just be the lighting. What makes me question the entire badge is that the same type of silver finish on the pin looks to be on the catch and on the badge itself in spots. So if we know the pin is bad, that makes me question the rest of it. I really don't know either way, just stating that it looks a bit different in the level of detail and the quality of the finish compared with other Oval Crimp badges.

Andreas, are you aware of any other makers that used the cut-off semi-circular catchplate like we see on Giel's new PAB? It is very interesting that whoever made the reverse die for the attributed-Deumer GABs created with a semi-circular depression in the back of the badge. This seems form-fitting for this type of catchplate. If this type of catchplate was from a 3rd party supplier, the I would think you would see this type of semi-circular catch on several other badges by different makers, but as far as I can recall we don't. Off hand I can only think of some Juncker Heer Para badges that have semi-circular catchplates, but are there others?

Thanks

Tom

[Panzercracker]

Just a suggestion, as I've tried this on my own, researching a particular EK1 maker. Why not pull up every known example/variant to your desk top. Then, weed though them and separate the "prime" examples. Then, compare the front and back (including 3/4 views of the hardware). Tom, please have a look at the profile (inside), from the backside shots below, as I tried to demonstrate how close the bronze matches the silver to it's immediate left (hope I'm not peeing in the wind again). Two variant set-ups, but match closer from the backside than Giel's example! So IMO, not a repro. It would be a lot of hassle, and, the complicated hardware to boot! Then there's that "anomaly" half-moon-shape, in relation to Giel's... Please bare in mind, that the photographer, didn't adjust his settings properly to take out the "convex" view seen.

--Ken

[PKAliebhaber]

Giel you red the thread i saw, how about an answer? Why Daisy 2 = Deumer? Please if you cant answer ask the "Pab-Book-guy" he always has a clever maker-answer.


at others: "cut-off semi-circular catchplate" really???? come on it was shown this hardware is nothing special! So the catchplate is typical Deumer?

Maybe one day we will have more proof, that first the massiv zinc bages exicst, then the hollow zinc at end of war and all this here and the theory here just wrong

[Thomas Durante]

at others: "cut-off semi-circular catchplate" really???? come on it was shown this hardware is nothing special! So the catchplate is typical Deumer?

If it is nothing special, then shouldn't it be easy to find other examples of makers using it? Off hand I cannot think of any (other than Juncker on their Heer Paras), but there are probably a few out there I am missing.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

If it is nothing special, then shouldn't it be easy to find other examples of makers using it?

If it is the special sign of one and only maker than shouldn't it be easy to find a maker marked example of the badge or?

Nice ... after the "typical Deumer setup" is shown as common stuff used by different makers we now try to rescue the maker connection via the soldering help (catchplatte).

What's the next forensic level?

Should we smell on the badges if it smells like Deumer?
(I know an expert of that).

[Giel VW]

Hi guys

Great to see some fire in the thread again!

Andreas, I indeed was wrong, I made my simplification on that catch too quick and it was wrong. What I like to mean is like I posted initially, is a badge with this Deumer set up and half cut round catch plate. If there's a would badge there I would love to see it.

PKA, I do not know who you are but your mentality doesn't belong here. Clearly you're one other guy who is pissed off about something and wants to express his feelings. Instead of saying your real name and your real frustration you try to take bases from under us in order to make this "forensic" research in to a big chaos. Well guess what try as much as you can, it won't happen, you're just an other scout send out by someone else to create some chaos on the WAF

I personally didn't went through the other thread where you kept on yelling why "Daisy 1" Deumer is. Here's some proof for me:

1) Deumer minesweeper badge L/11 shares identical set up, including pin mark!
2) Uboot Deumer with vertical set up shares same set up and same very unique design is posted in Deumer catalog.
3) EK1 L/11 clasp. Early tombak pieces sharing the same set up.
4) Deumer used a very typical screwback plate + cilinder. In big quantities seen on ek's but some rare early DEUMER badges (Daisy 2's) share the exact same set up. (Oh and what a coincidence that both Daisy 2 GAB and Daisy 2 IAB share this same screwback!)
5) The zink hollow Deumer PAB (Daisy 2) with the Deumer ek1 short pin variation (typical on Deumer Schinkel ek1's)

And there's probably much more. The thing is that the cards have never played against the whole Deumer theory. I'm sure an other piece will show up one day and will per coincidence fall perfectly in the puzzle again. Just like the silver pab I found, just like the DRGM screwback PAB Patrick found to strengthen the Meybauer dedication.

Oh and PKAliebhaber, book-writing guy didn't help me on this, just for your own record since I see you like to stalk me a bit.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Giel,

just a quick answer to some points:

2) Uboot Deumer with vertical set up shares same set up and same very unique design is posted in Deumer catalog.

Correct me if i'm wrong ... in the first version of their catalog Deumer had no U-Boat badge included. After they were allowed to produce it they were proud to show it to their possible customers and made a newsletter in which they showed their very own interpretation of the U-Boat badge. This picture is perfect and you can easily spot details of the real badge on it.

So far so good ...

When it comes to the PAB and the IAB the catalog shows a "fantasy" pieces which is no match to a real badge so we only have the information that you could buy a IAB or PAB sold by them as well.

Why this behaviour?

Was it because they had no own design for those badges and were selling something coming from a external production die and therfore there was no need to show their own Deumer design? Reminds me of the missing maker marks on Steinhauer combat badges from whom we know that they were produced with tools by Wissmann.

Just like the silver pab I found, just like the DRGM screwback PAB Patrick found to strengthen the Meybauer dedication.

I think i have written enough in the other thread about the DRGM system and the connection from Meybauer to sub-contractors. I can't see how this strenghten the Meybauer dedication.

... is a badge with this Deumer set up and half cut round catch plate. If there's a would badge there I would love to see it.

The "Deumer" catch on the Steinhauer wound badge is soldered there via a circle catchplatte ... if i cut it i have a half moon .... does this transform a S&L badge into a Deumer badge than? I don't think so. We also know that the soldering job was done by foreign workers ... perhaps they did a better job on the wound badges as on the combat badges where they needed a catchplate for help.

[Giel VW]

Hi Giel,

just a quick answer to some points:



Correct me if i'm wrong ... in the first version of theit catalog Deumer had no U-Boat badge included. After they were allowed to produce it they were proud to show it to their possivle customers and made a newsletter in which they showed their very own interpretation of the U-Boat badge. This picture is perfect and you can easily spot details of the real badge on it.

So far so good ...

When it comes to the PAB and the IAB the catalog shows a "fantasy" pieces which is no match to a real badge so we only have the information that you could buy a IAB or PAB sold by them as well.

Why this behaviour?

Was it because they had no own design for thos badges and were seeling something coming from a external production die and therfore there was no need to show their own Deumer design?



I think i have written enough in the other thread about the DRGM system and the connection from Meybauer to sub-contractors. I can't see how this strenghten the Meybauer dedication.

OK.. and a quick answer to the screwback with Deumer cilinder? Or the Deumer Schinkel pin?

[BassD]

i wrote it in an other thread to Tom.

All the connections are often and exclusive made via set ups (like in this thread). After all the research i could NOT find ONE company that make their own set ups. All bought them. S&L, Deschler, Wiedmann and a lot of other big players in the game

But ok, that must not say anything. But than we must accept the following

- one special set up that was only used by one firm (and sometimes only for special awards) during the war

And that in times of mass production and a system that regulate the market.

So you must not be an expert to answer yourself the question: how likely it that???

Edith says: i answered the question for me. And thats the reason why it was for me not necessary to be an player in the game of happy connections. And i found it good that not every posting here still was accepted with every connection that was made. And simple "could be the maker" or "not prooven" was enough to make not every connection to an hard fact that was repeat and repeat every time.