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**Chris Boonzaier** · 02-28-2014, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Gene View Post

The badges could very well be real, with most never making it to the field for presentation.

Just my two Reichspfennige

For me this is probably the most logical solution. If a badge was approved in late 1944, it was not without a long preamble... suggested, discussed, chewed over, agreed on... then hitler signs the document.... noone suggested over tea and cakes..."Hey, what about a sniper badge?" ... then hitler signs the same day...

Earlier in the thread someone Poopoo'ed the idea of them being in a Depot somewhere and not yet widely distributed... this is a bit short sighted...

For decades European collectors thought US collectors were saps for buying into the Dachau SS Cloth scam.... oooops... turns out the US collectors were right...

For many years German collectors thought navy Honour clasps were exceedingly rare... till the stuff canadian soldiers pocketed hit the market...

26 marked EK1s, depot stash of KVK1s.... we have seen it all...

To say that they were never made, and there would never have been a store with them is no proof.

Coversley, I think to assume that when Hitler signed an Order.... that noone carried it out for 5 or 6 months... and ordered the badges... to be very unlikely indeed.

The fact that many, probably most snipers never saw one, is not disputable... it seems to be fact... but that is no reflection on the production of the badges.

So far the only thing that was 100% faked here was the group with added badges.... but that is not to say the badges themselves in the group were fake...

**markus** · 02-28-2014, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

For me this is probably the most logical solution. If a badge was approved in late 1944, it was not without a long preamble... suggested, discussed, chewed over, agreed on... then hitler signs the document.... noone suggested over tea and cakes..."Hey, what about a sniper badge?" ... then hitler signs the same day...

Earlier in the thread someone Poopoo'ed the idea of them being in a Depot somewhere and not yet widely distributed... this is a bit short sighted...

For decades European collectors thought US collectors were saps for buying into the Dachau SS Cloth scam.... oooops... turns out the US collectors were right...

For many years German collectors thought navy Honour clasps were exceedingly rare... till the stuff canadian soldiers pocketed hit the market...

26 marked EK1s, depot stash of KVK1s.... we have seen it all...

To say that they were never made, and there would never have been a store with them is no proof.

Coversley, I think to assume that when Hitler signed an Order.... that noone carried it out for 5 or 6 months... and ordered the badges... to be very unlikely indeed.

The fact that many, probably most snipers never saw one, is not disputable... it seems to be fact... but that is no reflection on the production of the badges.

So far the only thing that was 100% faked here was the group with added badges.... but that is not to say the badges themselves in the group were fake...

Which one is good then from the ones shown and on which basis to sum it up here? The big dealer in Germany has been selling all these types...

Attached Files

**AndyC** · 02-28-2014, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

For me this is probably the most logical solution. If a badge was approved in late 1944, it was not without a long preamble... suggested, discussed, chewed over, agreed on... then hitler signs the document.... noone suggested over tea and cakes..."Hey, what about a sniper badge?" ... then hitler signs the same day...

Earlier in the thread someone Poopoo'ed the idea of them being in a Depot somewhere and not yet widely distributed... this is a bit short sighted...

For decades European collectors thought US collectors were saps for buying into the Dachau SS Cloth scam.... oooops... turns out the US collectors were right...

For many years German collectors thought navy Honour clasps were exceedingly rare... till the stuff canadian soldiers pocketed hit the market...

26 marked EK1s, depot stash of KVK1s.... we have seen it all...

To say that they were never made, and there would never have been a store with them is no proof.

Coversley, I think to assume that when Hitler signed an Order.... that noone carried it out for 5 or 6 months... and ordered the badges... to be very unlikely indeed.

The fact that many, probably most snipers never saw one, is not disputable... it seems to be fact... but that is no reflection on the production of the badges.

So far the only thing that was 100% faked here was the group with added badges.... but that is not to say the badges themselves in the group were fake...

Good input Chris

Andy

**markus** · 02-28-2014, 12:26 PM

These were for sale by www.soldat.com

What is the possibility of the "accepted" ones having been made my "SIEDER"?

Attached Files

JQI_sniper_4x.jpg (164.1 KB, 242 views)

**Chris Boonzaier** · 02-28-2014, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by markus View Post

Which one is good then from the ones shown and on which basis to sum it up here? The big dealer in Germany has been selling all these types...

Hi Markus,

As i have said before... I have no opinion on the individual badges, just the process in deciding if something is fake or not...

This whole thread has had no proof... just supposition from both sides.

My supposition is that I find it almost impossible that after a long approval process, a badge authorised by Hitler simply never went into production...

The arguments AGAINST the production ... well... so far there have been none, other than "i dont think they were made..."

Few being awarded and none being produced are appels and oranges....

Its a bit like accusing someone of being a Paedophile... you dont need proof... just float the idea and you destroy a reputation.... when facts are lacking... people like to believe the worst...

The Question was posed..."After this thread...will dealers still sell them?"

The thing is... some of them may avoid them simply because the reputation has been attacked... This badge is the "accused Paedophile"... whether the claims be true or not... noone wants one in the house...the dealers are there for easy sales and will probably avoid stocking things that raise questions...

**markus** · 02-28-2014, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

Hi Markus,

As i have said before... I have no opinion on the individual badges, just the process in deciding if something is fake or not...

This whole thread has had no proof... just supposition from both sides.

My supposition is that I find it almost impossible that after a long approval process, a badge authorised by Hitler simply never went into production...

The arguments AGAINST the production ... well... so far there have been none, other than "i dont think they were made..."

Few being awarded and none being produced are appels and oranges....

Its a bit like accusing someone of being a Paedophile... you dont need proof... just float the idea and you destroy a reputation.... when facts are lacking... people like to believe the worst...

The Question was posed..."After this thread...will dealers still sell them?"

The thing is... some of them may avoid them simply because the reputation has been attacked... This badge is the "accused Paedophile"... whether the claims be true or not... noone wants one in the house...the dealers are there for easy sales and will probably avoid stocking things that raise questions...

Yes, I understand your point.

A friend of mine in Germany who used to collect tried to sell his sniper badges many years ago to a well-known dealer in Germany and much to his suprise the dealer did not even want to physically touch them, not speaking about taking a quick look at them....

But, let's stop. Every collector must make his own decisions in the end...

Cheers,
Markus

**Chris Boonzaier** · 02-28-2014, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by markus View Post

These were for sale by www.soldat.com

What is the possibility of the "accepted" ones having been made my "SIEDER"?

Markus,

I am sure you will agree, that if German dealers were selling hundreds of fakes... then it still does not mean the badge was not produced...

We can say "The type X badge was sold as original by 20 dealers in the 90s"...

It only proves that the type X fake was sold in the 90s... and nothing more.

**markus** · 02-28-2014, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

Markus,

I am sure you will agree, that if German dealers were selling hundreds of fakes... then it still does not mean the badge was not produced...

We can say "The type X badge was sold as original by 20 dealers in the 90s"...

It only proves that the type X fake was sold in the 90s... and nothing more.

Bottom line for me:

Solid provenance is missing for all of these, whatever the variation or type. It's like tossing a coin into the air...each collector will make his own decision and take a mear leap of faith...

Have a great weekend y'all !

Markus

**Peter J.** · 02-28-2014, 01:00 PM

"A friend of mine in Germany who used to collect tried to sell his sniper badges many years ago to a well-known dealer in Germany and much to his suprise the dealer did not even want to physically touch them, not speaking about taking a quick look at them...."

I think this speaks more than words. 20 years I bought an extremely high end fake of a 50 bronze PAB, without having done my homework. It all became clear when I offered it to two Hamburg dealers and they both rejected it. Reason? They had several in stock! Yeah right

cheers
Peter

**Jeff V** · 02-28-2014, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by markus View Post

These were for sale by www.soldat.com

What is the possibility of the "accepted" ones having been made my "SIEDER"?

With a little aging and a story these will be sold as originals for sure.

**Antonio Scapini** · 02-28-2014, 01:24 PM

Markus, you told a lot of stories during this thread, telling about your friends, your ideas, your suppositions...

But we all saw you buy a sniper group, you add a sniper badge, and you sold the whole group. If you think they are fakes, why do you add another one to the group and don't you have burned the other Peter sold you?

BTW, I hope intelligent collectors who read this thread stop believing to your stories.

**markus** · 02-28-2014, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Markus, you told a lot of stories during this thread, telling about your friends, your ideas, your suppositions...

But we all saw you buy a sniper group, you add a sniper badge, and you sold the whole group. If you think they are fakes, why do you add another one to the group and don't you have burned the other Peter sold you?

BTW, I hope intelligent collectors who read this thread stop believing to your stories.

Simple, as I mentioned before, I loved these for many years...

And for the third of fourth time here, I was convinced they were original, trying to buy the group back including the badges (all of them) from Jaqcues, unfortunately to no success.

I changed my opinion on these 1-2 years ago, but that's only my opinion...you have your's, I have mine and a lot of other collectors have their own....

...and once more, the buyer wanted the badges to be added to the group. I have written confirmation which I sent on to a friend for varification. He read the sales communication
between buyer and seller and came to the conclusion that the business was "clean" and I am not to blame. (I can't believe I justifying myself here again...)

Cheerio!
Markus

**jacquesf** · 02-28-2014, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Markus, you told a lot of stories during this thread, telling about your friends, your ideas, your suppositions...

But we all saw you buy a sniper group, you add a sniper badge, and you sold the whole group. If you think they are fakes, why do you add another one to the group and don't you have burned the other Peter sold you?

BTW, I hope intelligent collectors who read this thread stop believing to your stories.

Thank you for that. Markus you are really starting to sound like Craig Gottlieb. You have been seriously discredited here, all by your own doing. J

**Chris Boonzaier** · 02-28-2014, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by markus View Post

...and once more, the buyer wanted the badges to be added to the group. I have written confirmation which I sent on to a friend for varification. He read the sales communication
between buyer and seller and came to the conclusion that the business was "clean" and I am not to blame. (I can't believe I justifying myself here again...)

Cheerio!
Markus

Maybe the time to speak up would have been when you saw the group had been sold on as an "original group"... would have been sufficient at the time to have pointed out which pieces had been added... even if you believed at the time that they were original?

**markus** · 02-28-2014, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

Maybe the time to speak up would have been when you saw the group had been sold on as an "original group"... would have been sufficient at the time to have pointed out which pieces had been added... even if you believed at the time that they were original?

Yes, maybe...

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