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**Norm F** · 02-28-2014, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

For many years German collectors thought navy Honour clasps were exceedingly rare... till the stuff canadian soldiers pocketed hit the market...
...
To say that they were never made, and there would never have been a store with them is no proof.

Conversely, I think to assume that when Hitler signed an Order.... that noone carried it out for 5 or 6 months... and ordered the badges... to be very unlikely indeed.

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

This whole thread has had no proof... just supposition from both sides.

My supposition is that I find it almost impossible that after a long approval process, a badge authorised by Hitler simply never went into production...

Hi Guys,

I have no part to play in this interesting speculative thread, but since the Kriegsmarine was mentioned just thought I'd throw in a few facts in that regard for comparison.

The Navy Honour clasp was instituted in May, 1944, is seen in period photos and exists in collections but is the rarest known KM award to collect.

The Naval Combat Clasp was instituted in November, 1944 and although the award was bestowed on paper, none were produced in wartime aside from ship-board improvised construction.

Admittedly a cloth badge might be quicker to produce than a metal one, but I don't think we can make any assumptions about production occurring within months of institution.

Best regards,
---Norm

**Jeff V** · 02-28-2014, 04:46 PM

A very interesting point you make Norm about the marine frontspange. Instituted at around the same time as the snipers patch none were produced during the war officially.

**Norm F** · 02-28-2014, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Jeff V View Post

A very interesting point you make Norm about the marine frontspange. Instituted at around the same time as the snipers patch none were produced during the war officially.

Then there's the Kampfabzeichen der Kleinkampfverbände (Small Combat Units Awards). These were instituted at the end of November, 1944 and were defined to consist of a cloth candidate's badge, cloth badges for levels 1 to 4 and metal clasps for level 5 to 7. For these there's no evidence that anything above Level 3 was produced at all. So far, there is one potential design of cloth patch for the candidate's badge and for Levels 1 to 3 that may have been produced before the end of the war. That's based upon:
A) one post-war portrait photograph of the candidate's patch and the Level 1 patch worn together incorrectly by a sailor without wartime national symbols along with a certificate dating his Level 1 award to May 1, 1945
B) another Level 1 patch in a veteran's grouping with an award date of April 20, 1945, and
C) a Level 3 patch in the Danish Armoury Museum with a low inventory number (date unknown but old).

Since there are no actual wartime photos with these in wear seen so far, and these cloth patches lack the national symbol, we can't know if they were made before May, 1945 or post-war to "fill the gap" and go along with their award citations.

So perhaps a very similarly ambiguous situation to the Sniper's badge, but I think most KM collectors are fairly content with simply saying we can't know for sure. The post-war photo at least suggests that the patches of the "accepted design" Kleinkampfabzeichen are quite old which puts it one step ahead of the Sniper's patch in provenance. But any other style of manufacture than that one design of Kleinkampfabzeichen is left in the 100% speculative realm.

Best regards,
---Norm

**Bruce Simcox** · 02-28-2014, 07:44 PM

Well......

......I don't think that the following is completely accurate, or should be used as a barometer in deciding whether or not these actually went into production

to assume that when Hitler signed an Order.... that noone carried it out for 5 or 6 months...

As I recall, the ME262 was ordered to be configured as a ground bomber....It was, eventually, but when it was first rolled out....oops! No bombing capability. To be honest I don't know whether heads rolled or not...but wouldn't that demonstrate that some orders were not necessarily carried out?

**Nigromontanus** · 03-01-2014, 02:45 AM

I prefer to stay silent, but I have read so much in this thread which hurt, so I must put and end to this. OK: there are 2 Versions of the sniper badge. The early one which measures are given in September 1944 and the "final" one from January 1945. The final one is the "accepted" type. Most of these on the market have not been issued. Of the "early" ones, which are bigger, presumably all have been issued, before the "final" version was issued and have thus been mostly destroyed by the soldiers waring them, either on they uniform or in their Soldbuch. I attach a pic of an early one, found in an empty house in a LAH endfightings area in Austria. I got it for free from the person having it found there 20 years ago.

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**Chris Boonzaier** · 03-01-2014, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by Bruce Simcox View Post

......I don't think that the following is completely accurate, or should be used as a barometer in deciding whether or not these actually went into productionAs I recall, the ME262 was ordered to be configured as a ground bomber....It was, eventually, but when it was first rolled out....oops! No bombing capability. To be honest I don't know whether heads rolled or not...but wouldn't that demonstrate that some orders were not necessarily carried out?

Ahhh.. but I am guessing making a cloth badge and a ME262 are 2 very different things to produce.....

**Chris Boonzaier** · 03-01-2014, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

Hi Guys,

I have no part to play in this interesting speculative thread, but since the Kriegsmarine was mentioned just thought I'd throw in a few facts in that regard for comparison.

The Navy Honour clasp was instituted in May, 1944, is seen in period photos and exists in collections but is the rarest known KM award to collect.

Hi,

I used to have 4. All "liberated" by canadian soldiers. In the Mid 90s it was not hard to find them in Canada.

When I moved to Germany the German collectors I knew swallowed their tongues when they saw them....

My point being, it went from a Hyper rare award to one you can readily buy if you are willing to pay the money.

Best
Chris

**Rikster** · 03-01-2014, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by Nigromontanus View Post

I prefer to stay silent, but I have read so much in this thread which hurt, so I must put and end to this. OK: there are 2 Versions of the sniper badge. The early one which measures are given in September 1944 and the "final" one from January 1945. The final one is the "accepted" type. Most of these on the market have not been issued. Of the "early" ones, which are bigger, presumably all have been issued, before the "final" version was issued and have thus been mostly destroyed by the soldiers waring them, either on they uniform or in their Soldbuch. I attach a pic of an early one, found in an empty house in a LAH endfightings area in Austria. I got it for free from the person having it found there 20 years ago.

regarding this type of patch......and this just personal opinion, but the quality of the design and of the physical production just does not seem to "fit in" with WWII German cloth, even at the end the quality was pretty damned good. Also the "design" just looks "wrong" for the period. Just an opinion.

**Jeff V** · 03-01-2014, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Nigromontanus View Post

I prefer to stay silent, but I have read so much in this thread which hurt, so I must put and end to this. OK: there are 2 Versions of the sniper badge. The early one which measures are given in September 1944 and the "final" one from January 1945. The final one is the "accepted" type. Most of these on the market have not been issued. Of the "early" ones, which are bigger, presumably all have been issued, before the "final" version was issued and have thus been mostly destroyed by the soldiers waring them, either on they uniform or in their Soldbuch. I attach a pic of an early one, found in an empty house in a LAH endfightings area in Austria. I got it for free from the person having it found there 20 years ago.

You seem to have all the answers. In fact, it appears that you are the only person in the world that knows anything factual about these patches. Here we are worrying about the accepted type and it turns out there are really two types complete with issue dates and everything. Do you have any proof beyond found in a house in the 90's?

**Nigromontanus** · 03-01-2014, 10:38 AM

I am definitely not the only person and I do not know everything. But I have original badges of both types and seen and documented many more. Measure of the "early" type September was set 53x70 mm (see Jocher, Scharfschützen in der Waffen-SS). Has nobody who has the "accepted" type ever cared to measure it and did not wonder that it is smaller than prescribed? Well the "early" has exactly these measurements. On the whole I have seen books being written on the sniper badge which contain bad Information and fake badges. Matter of factly I must say judging from the first reactions it was a mistake to write here.

**Norm F** · 03-01-2014, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Nigromontanus View Post

Matter of factly I must say judging from the first reactions it was a mistake to write here.

No disrespect intended Nigromontanus, but it's always a mistake to write a claim of fact with nothing presented to support it and naive to expect anyone to take it seriously on face value alone.

Having read it in a book doesn't help either without photos and supporting information on the author's experience and sources. What's needed here are supportable arguments, wartime photos of badges in wear, traceable provenance at least farther back than 1957. Even reasoned conjecture is welcome so long as opinion isn't misrepresented as fact.

Best regards,
---Norm

**tgn** · 03-01-2014, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

...BTW, I hope intelligent collectors who read this thread stop believing to your stories.

Huh? Does this mean anyone you who disagrees with your opinions (not facts, just opinions) is not an intelligent collector?

I guess I am not an intelligent collector then, because I agree with Markus, these "accepted" versions of the sniper's badge are post war fakes, carefully distributed by unscrupulous dealers to deceive collectors and to make themselves wealthy. We have been duped!

And please, don't compare these with the Navy honor Roll clasp, which were found in Schloss Klessheim after the war, nicely cased as their Army and Air Force counterparts.

**Chris Boonzaier** · 03-02-2014, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by tgn View Post

And please, don't compare these with the Navy honor Roll clasp, which were found in Schloss Klessheim after the war, nicely cased as their Army and Air Force counterparts.

Just a point... I believe most of the Navy clasps were not anywhere near Klessheim, as stated before, Navy clasps hit the market in the mid 90s for the first time. They came out of the woodwork in canada and were sold to the states and Europe.... Fits with the canadians being in areas where there were Kriegsmarine bases.

**longislandercjv** · 11-26-2014, 06:34 PM

After over 300 posts, but no one has provided any meaningful proof that they were produced and worn during the III Reich.
My original inquiry (post #24) remains unanswered.
It appears that the snipers badge was awarded, entered in the recipient's Soldbuch, but never actually presented.

This thread opened up quite a "can-of-worms" and interesting revelations about original Sniper groups being "embellished" by the addition of sniper patches that were not present in group when it was found.

Every collector has his own criteria for what he adds to his collection, but
the controversy over these snipers patches continues.
The prices that are asked for "accepted original" examples is prohibitive
especially since there is still no ironclad proof that the snipers patch was actually manufactured.

**German_Sniper** · 11-27-2014, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by longislandercjv View Post

Every collector has his own criteria for what he adds to his collection, but
the controversy over these snipers patches continues.
The prices that are asked for "accepted original" examples is prohibitive
especially since there is still no ironclad proof that the snipers patch was actually manufactured.

It is unfortunate that as yet there does not exist, to my knowledge any known war time photographs of the sniper patch being worn to identify an example as a basis for a "text book example"

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