Sniper Badge-Hand Embroidered

[markus]

Interesting also that no printed award certificates were produced/issued.

All certificates found today are fieldmade or simple entries into the men's SB. That had to be enough.

There was enough time at the end of the war to have at least some documents printed, or not? It would not have been so expensive nor time consuming to have a proper award document printed...instead all that improvised paperstuff...

Fancy badges, but toiletpaper-like award docs...does that fit?

[Simon O.]

Markus

It was 'only' a cloth 'qualification' badge, along the same lines as the tank destruction, which could be argued as being fancier, and those quite often only had typewritten award docs.

I also know the concept of snipers didn't sit too well with the army and it was only towards the end of the war they started to become recognised. I think it speaks volumes that only the highest scoring sniper ever got the RK and that just 10 days prior to the end of the war (not counting the unofficial awards like Allebergers). I haven't studied the subject in any depth and don't know if any got the DKiG or EBS?

[Simon O.]

Some guys told me to stop answer here, because this discussion is now really absurd. I agree, now it is.


This picture is taken from Bundesarchive, its note perfectly matches with the one I posted that was taken from a newspaper ( I don't remember which, but please don't start a polemic even about the newspaper!!!!).
It is obvious a period newspaper didn't make mistakes for an award ceremony.

Simon, find the same picture you posted on period newspaper with the same note if you have some doubt. I'm sure you will loose your time.
Or find on Bundesarchive a note of an awared ceremony picture that not matches with the note of the same picture printed on a wartime newspaper and please post them both here.
Made also a research on what Himmler made in that day, maybe you will find he took part of an award ceremony for 3 stupid sniper badges. And please post it too here based on original period documents if possible related with Himmler personal office - and prove they are original wartime with solid proofs - if not the guys will not believe you. In this way you can also prove this ceremony was never made or maybe you will find in that day Himmler gave to that soldiers some candies for their childrens! It can be surely a great discover!

If you don't believe in something you should demonstrate why with solid period proofs Not simply doubt of period proofs Without any logic.


About the box it can be a normal one as the LDO boxes for example. It matches with an LDO box and it is possible these badges were destinated also to be sold to the retail shops as all the rest of the TR badges. Or it can be a simply box used only that day!!!

I agree Antonio, this is getting absurd, i can only assume i am not explaining this clearly. I will try yet again to explain this to you.

1.) Can you see the badge in the photo? No
2.) Can you believe propaganda? No
3.) Are captions to PK photos known to be incorrect? Yes
4.) Is it possible that what the caption states is acurate? Yes
5.) Is it possible that what the caption states is inaccurate? Yes


It is very well known that soldiers were given rewards for service other than bits of tin and cloth for which they had no use. Cigarettes, alcohol, watches, leave, as well as unofficial awards in the form 'special recognition' award documents, one of which was posted from a book earlier in the thread.


Incidently, the propaganda piece from the paper mentions they accounted for 2 Soviet Companies (they mean total 'kills' of course not actual Companies). Something like 300 men and as we know propaganda is often a little liberal with the truth, that's is after all their job

[Antonio Scapini]

To support our opinion and the originality of TR pieces we need period proofs.

In this thread I see:

Period proofs vs absurd and tricky hypotesis.

No one period proof is showed from them who have doubt but only words words and words with no logic.

Sorry guys, I believe in history not in fantasy theories based on nothing with no logic.


We have read:
these badges came from '80... absurd and ridiculous
These were never given... absurd with no proofs
Fake ceremony, gift packets, fake snipers, etc etc... absurd based on hypotesis, no one proof showed.

We know with period proofs:
Badges were awarded with docs and SB-WP entries


In what should we base our militaria research, on period proofs or in tricky ideas?

Do you believe in tricky words or in history?
And why we discuss about these words? Where are your proofs? No one?

Only words words words.... and again words words words...

[jacquesf]

What about this one?

Interesting also that no printed award certificates were produced/issued.

All certificates found today are fieldmade or simple entries into the men's SB. That had to be enough.

There was enough time at the end of the war to have at least some documents printed, or not? It would not have been so expensive nor time consuming to have a proper award document printed...instead all that improvised paperstuff...

Fancy badges, but toiletpaper-like award docs...does that fit?

[Antonio Scapini]

What about this one?

It is a field made Jacques.

But for the end of the word I see really no problem in field made docs. With the Germany bombed I think factories have other problems and printing some tens of doc was not so important. Thousands and Thousands doc for all the badges were field made during all the war and especially near the end!

Again another no logic theory; this time that docs don't fit with badges...

I'm just curious: what will be the next?
Until I see a theory with UFO involvement I don't stop read this thread!

[Spanish Freiwillige]

I agree Antonio, this is getting absurd, i can only assume i am not explaining this clearly. I will try yet again to explain this to you.

1.) Can you see the badge in the photo? No
2.) Can you believe propaganda? No
3.) Are captions to PK photos known to be incorrect? Yes
4.) Is it possible that what the caption states is acurate? Yes
5.) Is it possible that what the caption states is inaccurate? Yes


It is very well known that soldiers were given rewards for service other than bits of tin and cloth for which they had no use. Cigarettes, alcohol, watches, leave, as well as unofficial awards in the form 'special recognition' award documents, one of which was posted from a book earlier in the thread.


Incidently, the propaganda piece from the paper mentions they accounted for 2 Soviet Companies (they mean total 'kills' of course not actual Companies). Something like 300 men and as we know propaganda is often a little liberal with the truth, that's is after all their job

I agree with simon and markus ...the photo is not solid evidence....

[Simon O.]

Ok Antonio i'll make it real simple for you.

That PK photo and caption does not prove the badges were ever manufactured, nor does it mean that the caption is true, propaganda is propaganda, absolutely everyone knows that.

[markus]

Only to clarify: The point with the field-made documents vs. badges is: Why should thousands of simple paper certificates not be printed, but badges made? What is more complicated?

Until ironclad evidence or provenance for a piece is presented (there is non anywhere you look and dig!), we can not be sure of these badges' existence. Unfortunately.

I can only strongly recommend to talk to one, two dealers of your trust in Germany about them and I'm sure they will let something shine through, provided you make sufficient turnover with them. That little mystery and homework must remain....

I think this thread was informative and quite entertaining. We all learned and had some fun in the process.

I'm off now. Cheers and a very nice weekend to everybody!

Markus

[Simon O.]

Before anyone jumps on me i know full well that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but i thought it would be of value to add this small piece.

It shows the holdings of the various combat awards for AOK 20 as at 31 Dec.44 and how many of each had been issued to its subordinate units and formations during the previous 6 months, you will notice that the CCC in gold is missing, the reason being none were held or issued (and indeed none were ever awarded in that theater of war).

I also know that German snipers were very active on this front so had the badge itself been available in 1944 i would expect it to appear in the holdings at army Level. Of course this says nothing of the last 5 months of the war, but it's worthwhile posting anyway as awards on paper are known to have been made in 1944

[Simon O.]

Only to clarify: The point with the field-made documents vs. badges is: Why should thousands of simple paper certificates not be printed, but badges made? What is more complicated?

Until ironclad evidence or provenance for a piece is presented (there is non anywhere you look and dig!), we can not be sure of these badges' existence. Unfortunately.

I can only strongly recommend to talk to one, two dealers of your trust in Germany about them and I'm sure they will let something shine through, provided you make sufficient turnover with them. That little mystery and homework must remain....

I think this thread was informative and quite entertaining. We all learned and had some fun in the process.

I'm off now. Cheers and a very nice weekend to everybody!

Markus

To be fair the one you posted is a preliminary doc.

The Source of the award documents doesn't correlate With the Source of the awards themselves as you know, units and formations often produced their own printed docs and there are a few known which recognised a snipers efforts if not the award of the badge itself.

[markus]

To be fair the one you posted is a preliminary doc.

The Source of the award documents doesn't correlate With the Source of the awards themselves as you know, units and formations often produced their own printed docs and there are a few known which recognised a snipers efforts if not the award of the badge itself.

Hi Simon -

Thanks for posting that doc from AOK 20.

Short correction/clarification from my side: I did not post an award doc here.

For this badge there was only a "Besitz-Zeugnis", not a preliminary award certificate. There was no "formal" doc to follow. Just like any IAB, GAB, TAB, etc.

I've collected sniper stuff for about 5 years, talked to snipers, true historians, collectors and dealers (very important!!!) and never did I come across a proper printed document. Only field-/unit made material....and obviously no badges, not even for the most prominent, most successful snipers...for a reason.

Anyway, nothing real to add anymore and ready for the weekend.

Cheers,
Markus

[Antonio Scapini]

...Of course this says nothing of the last 5 months of the war, but it's worthwhile posting anyway as awards on paper are known to have been made in 1944

Yes Simon, this says really nothing, as in this paper are missing also:
- numbered PAB
- numbered GAB
- Bandenkampfabzeichen
- KvK with Swords
- Heeres Flak badge
- Knight Cross
- German Cross

I repeat: period proofs against words words and words...


I have another picture.
Note says: "Der Führer ehrt Kommandeure des befreiten Tscherkassy-Kessels durch Überreichung des Ritterkreuzes an SS-Hauptsturmführer Léon Degrelle und der Schwerter zum Eichenlaub an Generalleutnant der Waffen-SS Gille. Rechts Reichsführer SS Himmler."

The propaganda machine wants to make us believe this is an award ceremony, but I'm quite sure Hitler is giving a watch to Gille thanking him for his service, as we don't see any Oak Leaves with Swords, only a piece of a box (that perfectly matches with the box of my watch!). But they may not be what we think to see, they might be actors and the picture post war... Who knows?

[markus]

Quick, last question, before heading out to Acapulco....

Did anyone here ever try and sell a sniper badge to a dealer (in Germany) ?


Cheers!
Markus

[Simon O.]

Yes Simon, this says really nothing, as in this paper are missing also:
- numbered PAB
- numbered GAB
- Bandenkampfabzeichen
- KvK with Swords
- Heeres Flak badge

I repeat: period proofs against words words and words...

the KVK is not a combat award, the holdings of those along With the EK are on a different page.

As for the others...it's because the didn't hold any! None of those were ever awarded in Norway\Finland. My point was if they had been available in 1944 they should appear here because there were plenty of snipers on the Lappland front. Also note that they held a lot of PKA in bronze, yet none were issued...because nobody from a qualifying unit qualified. (panzer division\brigade norwegen did nothing other than anti-resistance work).