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**Jeff V** · 02-18-2014, 03:34 PM

Willi, in post 157 there is a badge "thought to be original" from the text of the book you posted. We can only see the top of this badge, can you post a pic of the complete badge?
best wishes,
jeff

**Jeff V** · 02-18-2014, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

Jeff, how does anything get accepted? It is generally viewed by many that way. Rather subjective, of course.

What is ironclad? An author including a photo of one from a German veteran? How can any reader be sure?

We could have that discussion about endless topics within TR collecting alone. From Luft tropical Berolina caps to RKs to alot of cloth insignia.

For most of my collecting time the fakes have not been very convincing. Now they are much better. Some have been around from day one. How else should we proceed in an area like this?

Does anyone have a copy of this book that Robin was referring to here: "On P.97 of Hormann's book on the German Infantry, there is shown the Sniper Badge in Gold awarded on 16th December, 1944 to Heinrich Franken of the 7th Company, Grenadier Regiment 58. It differs from the ones you show in that:-

1. The stitching on the eagle's breast is in yellow, not white, thread;
2. The background is tan, not grey;
3. The border is yellow celleon, not gold."

I would be most interested if two different badges were attributed to the same veteran, this would not be good for provenance.
Jeff

**tgn** · 02-18-2014, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

Tom, this is your proof of acceptance back in the 60's? Even without the border the badges do not look alike. It is easy to see yours is thick with a backing, and this one is not. What a waste of time.....

Check post 137.

I don't know why you are so upset. Honestly, if you like your sniper badge you can keep your sniper badge. No problem with me. That goes for all of you.

Tom

**chahler** · 02-18-2014, 08:27 PM

A good long while ago I bought a bunch of Nazi items from a vet. I want to take advantage of this thread that was opened and get your opinions in regards to my patch.

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**chahler** · 02-18-2014, 08:28 PM

Gj

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20140217_170050-1-1.jpg (155.6 KB, 291 views)

**Antonio Scapini** · 02-19-2014, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by markus View Post

...We can not know for sure whether these were ever really produced pre-May 1945.

Cheers
Markus

Originally posted by tgn View Post

...There was no wartime production that got left in a railway car, the back of a factory or some obscure supply dump found many years after the war. They were just never made. The ones that appear with documents or soldbuch groups were just added in recent years to embellish the lot. JMO

Tom

Probably Himmler when awarded these soldiers with the Scharfschützenabzeichen has not the original snier badge, but a post war replacement...

Sorry guys, but this badge was instituted, produced and awarded during the war, and the picture below is an unquestionable confirm.

"Himmler überreicht an besonders erfolgreiche Scharfschützen das Scharfschützenabzeichen"

(Himmler presented to particularly successful snipers the sniper badge).

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Himm_scarf.jpg (237.7 KB, 281 views)

**markus** · 02-19-2014, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Probably Himmler when awarded these soldiers with the Scharfschützenabzeichen has not the original snier badge, but a post war replacement...

Sorry guys, but this badge was instituted, produced and awarded during the war, and the picture below is an unquestionable confirm.

"Himmler überreicht an besonders erfolgreiche Scharfschützen das Scharfschützenabzeichen"

(Himmler presented to particularly successful snipers the sniper badge).

Hi Antonio-

Thanks for posting the photo. No sensation, it's publsihed in all relevant literature about the sniper badge. I have everything here, I studied and loved these for several years. I even wrote an article about sniper badges for this forum and a military magazine.

I was gravely disappointed about these badges some time back. Do a research on where they really originate from and talk about them with a dealer of your trust.

I don't have to be convinced. In militaria I collect LAH and am moving in on the higher grades of the KC, so no envy or any other motives for sure.

Cheers,
Markus

**Antonio Scapini** · 02-19-2014, 09:22 AM

I can understand different points of view Markus, and I respect all.
What I don't understand is how doubt in front of a so many unquestionable proofs.

Everything screams these badge were produced and in use during the war, even the propaganda shows Himmler while award some soldiers. How we can doubt of a period picture like this? On what base the theory these badges were never produced during the TR?

IMO there are TR pieces that have less solid proofs than the sniper badge in support to their originality.

Below a "Merkblatt für Scharfschützen" with the design of the badge on cover...

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S7303649_1.jpg (64.9 KB, 277 views)

**Jeff V** · 02-19-2014, 09:51 AM

Something was produced during the war. The question is what? Is it the "accepted" piece or something else. It appears that one of the main vets lending credence to the accepted pieces Franken has two different badges published as the piece he was awarded during the war, not good.
Still waiting for Willi to post the complete badge shown in post 157.
best wishes,
jeff

**chen** · 02-19-2014, 10:01 AM

.

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**chen** · 02-19-2014, 10:12 AM

..

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**Antonio Scapini** · 02-19-2014, 10:14 AM

Jeff, as for all the rest of the TR badges were surely involved some different makers.
One of these produced what we today the "accepted" pattern, but out there, there are probably other patterns we don't know until some more proofs will surface.

This accepted pattern has a solid backgroud and it is proven to be wartime (insted some collectors believe the sniper badge were never made).
If you want doubt about it you can do it, but you should do the same for each other TR piece, as you collect what is "accepted", but some pieces has not a so solid background like this "accepted" sniper badge.

**Jeff V** · 02-19-2014, 10:28 AM

thank you Chen! Interesting that that badge has some backing material that extends beyond the green border.
Antonio, I am not a disbeliever in these badges at all. For me the accepted type is for now the correct type. i am just trying to get to the bottom of this, same as all the participants on this thread I guess.

**Ludwig** · 02-19-2014, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Probably Himmler when awarded these soldiers with the Scharfschützenabzeichen has not the original snier badge, but a post war replacement...

Sorry guys, but this badge was instituted, produced and awarded during the war, and the picture below is an unquestionable confirm.

"Himmler überreicht an besonders erfolgreiche Scharfschützen das Scharfschützenabzeichen"

(Himmler presented to particularly successful snipers the sniper badge).

Yes! That´s the picture I was talking about!

**Ludwig** · 02-19-2014, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Basil View Post

One thing that has always puzzled me about this award is the assertion that it would never be worn in the field because it would lead to summary execution for the wearer, if captured. The reality is that it was such a 'late war' award that it would be unlikely to the point of impossibility that anyone capturing a soldier wearing it would have a clue what it was; and I suspect it would be far less of a death sentence than someone wearing, for example, SS runes, a death's head or a Dirlewanger collar patch.

Yes, true! Why institute an award, that nobody would dare to wear??? Perhaps a plaque or something like that, to display at home or at the regiment, instead. Of course they wore their Scharfschützenabzeichen if they got them! IMO.

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