Sniper Badge-Hand Embroidered

[Thomas Durante]

Thanks very much for the pictures Chen.

Interesting to see the apparent differences from the one in wear, compared with the "accepted original". Most notably;

1. Thick white leaf veining of the pic in wear example versus the very thin vein on the "accepted original".

2. White eye of the pin in wear versus the dark eye on the "accepted original".

The one shown on the first picture seems more in line with the accepted version, but hard to be sure due to the severe angle of the photo.

Tom

[chen]

Don't forget Mr. Hritz's tunic.

[markus]

Hi Chen-

What are the sources for the posted photos?

Wasn't there some lively discussion about them being possibly photo-shopped?

For those of us who collect paintings the name "Wolfgang Beltracchi" should ring a bell.

As far as I recall Bob's tunic (looks nice) has no provenance and was simply picked-up
at a show. As simple as that. And what is possible with a needle and thread we don't
have to discuss here anymore IMO.

Cheers,
Markus

[Chris Boonzaier]

So... the guy with the reversible White/Cammo jacket... did he have one on the other side of the jacket as well, and on his tunic underneath?

If ever I have seen a period pic that I think has been doctored... that is it...

[markus]

Here you see Wolfgang Beltracchi's fake photo to provide "provenance" of his fake paintings...he made millions selling his fakes providing fake provenance. (The photo had actually been made yesterday and showed his wife sitting at the table with the freshly painted fakes behind her). By the way, the paintings were all very "exclusive" pictures believed "long lost" and completely undocumented.

Collectors and dealers fell for his fakes (knowing/unknowingly?!), never doubting originality. It is still unknown how many Beltracchi fakes our out in collections today.

Wolfgang made millions, is publishing some books now and his movie is also coming out soon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSziJ-w-dDE

Cheers,
Markus

[101combatvet]

I like the details in Gary's badge, but those threads don't look right to me. The price tag looks artificially aged, and the price would not be consistent with workmanship of that caliber. This is just my opinion and I could be completely wrong. If it were my badge I'd be researching Stubbe in Linz... that would narrow it down.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the information and pics. I do remember hearing about Bob's tunic with the sniper patch on it, but that there was no provenance with it to speak of.

The sniper badge was instituted on 20th August 1944. Much like the Balloon Observer badge which was instituted 2 weeks prior, on 7 August 1944, there doesn't seem to be much of any provenance for these sniper patches and I am cautious about all of them. Unlike metal badges that need large machinery, tons of pressure and the correct base metals to make, these patches would be much easier to produce and fake IMO.

Tom

[tgn]

Hi guys,

Much like the Balloon Observer badge which was instituted 2 weeks prior, on 7 August 1944, there doesn't seem to be much of any provenance for these sniper patches and I am cautious about all of them.

Tom

I agree. I have a nice post war example in bronze as a filler, which I paid $15 for, but I have seen big dealers try to sell the same type as original.

Tom

[tgn]

The silence on this tread is deafening...

[Michael N]

I was asked to comment on this thread by a fellow collector that send me a pm.

The badge that started this thread is NOT an original example.

Patrick W posted an original one on the first page.

The second photo Chen posted that was commented on by Thomas Durante is an old altered photo.

Knowing about the Josef group when it first appeared or materialized I Never felt comfortable with it from the very beginning.

Have published my original badges in the Michaelis book some years ago.

[CWP]

I can't comment on the badge that started this thread but do have an interest in manufacturer paper tags and labels and in my opinion the label in post #1 is not convincing at all and raises a big red flag for me.

[Willi Z.]

Always a tough call, but I too do not like the one in question. We have quite a few threads in the Heer uniform section over the years. We do know, based on several German references, what type were awarded to veterans and I guess many, myself included, consider them to be the "textbook" ones. As much as that word is detested by some. For most of my time collecting those were always accepted. Then, in the last 10 years or so, came the ones in Feldgrau. At first I accepted them, but I must admit that I no longer do, and the only ones I feel comfortable are those with the gray backing.

We could have the same conversation with FJ bullion badges, yet we have only have a couple of accepted variations known to be original.

The paper tag is really bogus IMO.

[Jeff V]

How did the accepted version even become accepted? Is there a single one of these patches with some ironclad provenance?
jeff

[Willi Z.]

Jeff, how does anything get accepted? It is generally viewed by many that way. Rather subjective, of course.

What is ironclad? An author including a photo of one from a German veteran? How can any reader be sure?

We could have that discussion about endless topics within TR collecting alone. From Luft tropical Berolina caps to RKs to alot of cloth insignia.

For most of my collecting time the fakes have not been very convincing. Now they are much better. Some have been around from day one. How else should we proceed in an area like this?

[Jeff V]

How about provenance back to the end of the war or at least to the 50's. Did the old collections from the 50's have the accepted patches in them?
jeff