Sniper Badge-Hand Embroidered

[chen]

...

[Antonio Scapini]

1) Badge was instituted
2) design was known
3) realize the badges was very fast and simple
4) we have docs and solbuch's entries
5) we have some positive vet provenance pieces

If some snipers never received their badges, why think that no one received them? Willy posted an example of a men who received it.
How can we be sure of this story? In no one way, as for all the rest.

But this badge perfectly matches with "accepted originals", and all the vet pick ups were made with badges of this pattern.
This is the reason why we call this pattern "accepted".

BTW, as far as I know even in some allied table of the end of the war this badge was pictured; this can means that they know the badge.

"One coincidence is just a coincidence. Two coincidences are a clue. Three coincidences are a proof."

[Antonio Scapini]

Just to talk offtopic: Markus, even the Italian-German medal for african campaign was prohibited in 1944 and not recognized in '57 as it was never an official award, nor for germans, nor for italians... You can't see it listed, but you can see it in in '57 version thousand times!

[markus]

1) Badge was instituted
2) design was known
3) realize the badges was very fast and simple
4) we have docs and solbuch's entries
5) we have some positive vet provenance pieces

If some snipers never received their badges, why think that no one received them? Willy posted an example of a men who received it.
How can we be sure of this story? In no one way, as for all the rest.

But this badge perfectly matches with "accepted originals", and all the vet pick ups were made with badges of this pattern.
This is the reason why we call this pattern "accepted".

BTW, as far as I know even in some allied table of the end of the war this badge was pictured; this can means that they know the badge.

"One coincidence is just a coincidence. Two coincidences are a clue. Three coincidences are a proof."

Antonio -

Can you expend in detail on your point no. 5 please?

Iron-clad evidence of a sniper badge coming from a German veteran?
Excluding the possibility of a badge having been added to a group or falsely published with the name of a soldier printed next to it to create some kind of fake provenance?

We are slipping towards "public consensus" again...

As serious collectors we ought to be seeking a scientifically proven original piece.

Markus

[Antonio Scapini]

Yes, but we all know from vets came often also post war pieces made for example from HIAG or other associations...
So if you are looking for a solid rock provenance you will never find one, as everything can be questionable.

One of mine came from an old collector who had directly from a german soldier. No one can say this is an unquestionable proof, but this badge is the same pattern of what we call "accepted" original. Is it a case that these badges with a provenance have all the same style?
Have you accerted that Heinrich Franken of the Gren. Rgt. 58 have never received this badge and the page posted from Willy is a put-togheter story? If it is real? Is it a case that even this badge is of the "accepted" original pattern?

IMO no one of these is a case, and I will continue believe these badges are wartime pieces until further evidences.

As I said before: "One coincidence is just a coincidence. Two coincidences are a clue. Three coincidences are a proof."

BTW: a lot of TR pieces were never scientifically proven as good, but we accepted them as originals.

[markus]

Yes, but we all know from vets came often also post war pieces made for example from HIAG or other associations...
So if you are looking for a solid rock provenance you will never find one, as everything can be questionable.

One of mine came from an old collector who had directly from a german soldier. No one can say this is an unquestionable proof, but this badge is the same pattern of what we call "accepted" original. Is it a case that these badges with a provenance have all the same style?
Have you accerted that Heinrich Franken of the Gren. Rgt. 58 have never received this badge and the page posted from Willy is a put-togheter story? If it is real? Is it a case that even this badge is of the "accepted" original pattern?

IMO no one of these is a case, and I will continue believe these badges are wartime pieces until further evidences.

As I said before: "One coincidence is just a coincidence. Two coincidences are a clue. Three coincidences are a proof."

BTW: a lot of TR pieces were never scientifically proven as good, but we accepted them as originals.

I guess it's up to each collector to what standards he builds a collection.

From what people have PM'ed me here these last days, the "accepted-types" started entering militaria shows in the past 15-20 years and were never previously seen on the market. I myself have seen approx. 5 of the same type at a tiny show in Germany about 2 years ago with small dealers and reasonably priced. That's when my believe in them unfortunately started to crumble.

Hopefully there will be scientific proof one day.

That wraps it up once more:

We can not know for sure whether these were ever really produced pre-May 1945.

Cheers
Markus

[Antonio Scapini]

Markus, mine is really older than 20 years, and I think the one in Bob tunic too.

Are you sure the sniper badge in Weissinger group didn't come with the SB? So PvL could have added it.

Are you sure that Heinrich Franken of the Gren. Rgt. 58 have never received this badge and the page posted from Willy is a put-togheter story?

Are you sure the german who gave to a collector his badge (now mine) bought it after the war (with no logic if they pop-up, as you said, only 15-20 years ago)?

[markus]

Markus, mine is really older than 20 years, and I think the one in Bob tunics too.

Are you sure the sniper badge in Weissinger group didn't come with the SB? So PvL could have added it.

Are you sure that Heinrich Franken of the Gren. Rgt. 58 have never received this badge and the page posted from Willy is a put-togheter story?

Are you sure the german who gave to a collector his badge (now mine) bought it after the war (with no logic if they pop-up, as you said, only 15-20 years ago)?

Exactly, we can not be sure of anything. Only stories.

Unfortunately nothing solid.

Personally I'd buy the whole series of badges in a heartbeat again if there'd only be something solid to them.

Otherwise for me personally they have no real meaning for my collection besides that they look nice.

[longislandercjv]

Exactly, we can not be sure of anything. Only stories.

Unfortunately nothing solid.

Personally I'd buy the whole series of badges in a heartbeat again if there'd only be something solid to them.

Otherwise for me personally they have no real meaning for my collection besides that they look nice.

I'm with Marcus!
See my earlier posts #24, #48 and #73.

[101combatvet]

1) Badge was instituted
2) design was known
3) realize the badges was very fast and simple
4) we have docs and solbuch's entries
5) we have some positive vet provenance pieces

If some snipers never received their badges, why think that no one received them? Willy posted an example of a men who received it.
How can we be sure of this story? In no one way, as for all the rest.

But this badge perfectly matches with "accepted originals", and all the vet pick ups were made with badges of this pattern.
This is the reason why we call this pattern "accepted".

BTW, as far as I know even in some allied table of the end of the war this badge was pictured; this can means that they know the badge.

"One coincidence is just a coincidence. Two coincidences are a clue. Three coincidences are a proof."

Has anyone here actually verified Heinrich Franken as an actual sniper or are we just taking the author's word for it?

[Bruce Simcox]

Well......

Would not recommend "You-Tube" or "Wikipedia" or as such the internet as a credible and reliable source of information.

We might as well throw in the towel.

[101combatvet]

Has anyone here actually verified Heinrich Franken as an actual sniper or are we just taking the author's word for it?

Silence.... Geronimo! comes to mind.

[Antonio Scapini]

... Willy posted an example of a men who received it.
How can we be sure of this story? In no one way, as for all the rest.

...Have you accerted that Heinrich Franken of the Gren. Rgt. 58 have never received this badge and the page posted from Willy is a put-togheter story? If it is real?...

Please read my answers before make wrong assumptions.

I can't have the possibility now to verify if he was or not a sniper and his story. If I'll have, I'll be happy to do it.

[101combatvet]

Please read my answers before make wrong assumptions.

I can't have the possibility now to verify if he was or not a sniper and his story. If I'll have, I'll be happy to do it.

Just questioning as you have.

[Ludwig]

Correct.

Earliest publication (Design-drawing) September 1944...!

Which makes it very difficult for proof of the existence of the physical badge to emerge on the basis of photographic material.

@ Ludwig: When was the K-Abzeichen instituted and when was it issued. If I remember correctly, in the case of that badge photographic proof does sufficiently exist. Can we draw parallels between a Sniper Badge and the KK-Mittel badge?

Markus

Instituted very late in the war, 30th of November 1944, sawfish badges very seldom found their way to the frontline troops. Very few photos of soldiers wearing any grade of the badges exist.
I think that we can draw parallels, BUT the sniper´s badge is even more rare! There must have been more K-men than snipers in the Wehrmacht. IMO.