Sniper Badge-Hand Embroidered

[Ludwig]

One thing that has always puzzled me about this award is the assertion that it would never be worn in the field because it would lead to summary execution for the wearer, if captured. The reality is that it was such a 'late war' award that it would be unlikely to the point of impossibility that anyone capturing a soldier wearing it would have a clue what it was; and I suspect it would be far less of a death sentence than someone wearing, for example, SS runes, a death's head or a Dirlewanger collar patch.

Agree!

[Gary Symonds]

When I was a beginning collector in 1993, I went to my first MAX Show, which was in Baltimore.

I was at a table looking at some guy's stuff. He asked me how long I had been collecting, and I told him "two years."

He said, "whatever you do, don't collect cloth." Wise advice. I should have listened to the guy. Oh well.

As I initially posted in this thread, I was aware there is no consenus whatsoever regarding the Sniper Badge.

Even the "accepted originals" could have been made after the war.

There is no more evidence that the so called "accepted originals" being machine embroidered, are period, than my "fake" hand embroidered sniper badge.

Each experienced collector is left to his own opinion, which is as valid as the next experienced collector's opinion.

[CWP]

But there is a consensus. The consensus accepts the accepted originals as original and deems yours a fake. The consensus could be wrong but that a consensus has been reached seems beyond dispute.

[Willi Z.]

But there is a consensus. The consensus accepts the accepted originals as original and deems yours a fake. The consensus could be wrong but that a consensus has been reached seems beyond dispute.

Exactly! It works the same way for almost every part of this hobby, and for almost every type of collecting hobby, and for every era.

[Mike Kenny]

I just love Sniper Badge threads. So much money involved (let's not mention reputations), so many opinions (what's that they say about opinions?), and now some "questionable" evidence but so little GENUINE information. It's a pity the few known snipers couldn't actually shed any light the subject of what a genuine badge looks like, which is sort of illuminating in and of itself.

FACT 1: the badge was instituted
FACT 2: .................hmmmmmm

A small digression, consensus has NOTHING to do with determining whether a badge/item is ACTUALLY genuine or ACTUALLY a reproduction, regardless of whether it's an item like this or a common badge Worse, reading that group opinions (whoops, I mean consensus) now rule almost every part of every hobby is apparently the norm comes as a bit of a shock If there are no facts to back up a "consensus" I'd suggest it's a case of the blind leading the deaf, dumb and blind. Those who shout the loudest and longest win the discussion (reach consensus) and (any) facts be damned.

Back to Sniper Badges, I'm happy with my "not accepted original" as most likely an older reproduction (still don't recall having seen another one like it though) as a nice filler. To be clear, I'm quite happy calling it an old repro and I am not trying gain any sort of consensus over it - aside from "not accepted original" At least I'm comfortable with it and I'm not kidding myself over it's authenticity......but to play devil's advocate, it has as much chance of being original as almost every other type shown in this thread based on known facts (definite repros currently being sold as repros, or known to have been sold as repros in the past, aside).

Regards
Mike

[jacquesf]

I fully accept that the badges that came with the Weissinger group are original. The one person that can confirm how they got there and he got them is PvL. What annoys the hell out of me is that Markus, who owned this, was fully supportive of the content of the group as a whole, while he owned it and later when he sold it. Now all of a sudden he is singing from a different songbook.

I fully agree that the Badges posted by Antonio and Mike Davis are 100% good. Mike Kenny's badge embroidery looks really good, even the green embroidered border, only strange part is the non bullion cord. When and why was that added, would be interesting?

[markus]

I fully accept that the badges that came with the Weissinger group are original. The one person that can confirm how they got there and he got them is PvL. What annoys the hell out of me is that Markus, who owned this, was fully supportive of the content of the group as a whole, while he owned it and later when he sold it. Now all of a sudden he is singing from a different songbook.

I fully agree that the Badges posted by Antonio and Mike Davis are 100% good. Mike Kenny's badge embroidery looks really good, even the green embroidered border, only strange part is the non bullion cord. When and why was that added, would be interesting?

The bottom line is that I and nobody know whether these are good or bad. There is simply no proof. For all I know these might be good.

After I was offered 4-times the value I bought the group for without wanting really to part from it really I let it go almost 10 years ago. The buyer at the time asked various people for opinions and received positive feedback. Additionally, I actually contacted you once to buy it back at one point.

I continued to study snipers and met real German snipers from WW2 and started doubting the existance of the badges since noone I met or communicated with ever got a badge.

Maybe some types shown here are real and come from unissued stock.

The bottom line: No real water-proof evidence exists. And I think it is only honest to change one's opinion (merely my personal opinion!) after almost 10 years of continued study.

Most of the time we collect in good faith and don't forget I also put out my hard earned student money to buy the group in the first place, not doubting originality. I was in my low 20's when I bought it and mid 20's when I sold it, when I started collecting. Today I am must stricter with what enters my collection and what stays out.

Markus

[chen]

I fully accept that the badges that came with the Weissinger group are original. The one person that can confirm how they got there and he got them is PvL. What annoys the hell out of me is that Markus, who owned this, was fully supportive of the content of the group as a whole, while he owned it and later when he sold it. Now all of a sudden he is singing from a different songbook.

I fully agree that the Badges posted by Antonio and Mike Davis are 100% good. Mike Kenny's badge embroidery looks really good, even the green embroidered border, only strange part is the non bullion cord. When and why was that added, would be interesting?

Jacquesf,
That also puzzles me of the 2 sniper badges in the Weissinger grouping after the sale.

[tgn]

The bottom line is that I and nobody know whether these are good or bad. There is simply no proof. For all I know these might be good.

After I was offered 4-times the value I bought the group for without wanting really to part from it really I let it go almost 10 years ago. The buyer at the time asked various people for opinions and received positive feedback. Additionally, I actually contacted you once to buy it back at one point.

I continued to study snipers and met real German snipers from WW2 and started doubting the existance of the badges since noone I met or communicated with ever got a badge.

Maybe some types shown here are real and come from unissued stock.

The bottom line: No real water-proof evidence exists. And I think it is only honest to change one's opinion (merely my personal opinion!) after almost 10 years of continued study.

Most of the time we collect in good faith and don't forget I also put out my hard earned student money to buy the group in the first place, not doubting originality. I was in my low 20's when I bought it and mid 20's when I sold it, when I started collecting. Today I am must stricter with what enters my collection and what stays out.

Markus

Markus, I appreciate you insight and agree with your conclusions, and I for one, no longer believe there are any wartime issued original sniper badges. The first "accepted" versions I have and the later "almost accepted" version will be the extent of my sniper badge collection. I would not pay any serious money for another one, unless it comes with a detailed unaltered photo showing the recipient wearing "that exact badge."

Add these to balloon badges, air-sea rescue badges, and Luftwaffe panzer assault badges....

Tom

[jacquesf]

Why would an award be:
1. Formally approved and instituted -- Proven
2. Formally be awarded and entered into a soldbuch -- Proven
3. Never be physically awarded to the recipient? -- Makes no sense

IMO a few did find their way to the recipients, especially in view of the entry in the Weissinger soldbuch. J

[Jeff V]

Why would an award be:
1. Formally approved and instituted -- Proven
2. Formally be awarded and entered into a soldbuch -- Proven
3. Never be physically awarded to the recipient? -- Makes no sense

IMO a few did find their way to the recipients, especially in view of the entry in the Weissinger soldbuch. J

Hi Jacques, it makes perfect sense to me. A person is awarded the patch but because there are no patches on hand to give them they are told that they will receive the patch later. Award is entered into soldbuch but actual patch never given to them due to end of war.

[Antonio Scapini]

I would add another interesting doc. I published it and it was a citation conferred to a SS sniper who shot down 10 enemies (I don't remember who gave me it as I have not my books here).

The design is close to the badge. Yes, it is CLOSE, not cigar, because this is not the certificate for the badge, but only a citations for merit.

[markus]

I would add another interesting doc. I published it and it was a citation conferred to a SS sniper who shot down 10 enemies (I don't remember who gave me it as I have not my books here).

The design is close to the badge. Yes, it is CLOSE, not cigar, because this is not the certificate for the badge, but only a citations for merit.

This certificate belonged to "GvB" Uscha F. Kühn, whom I knew personally, doing my research (not collectors'/dearlers' consensus...whatever value that has scientifically) on snipers (and possible badges).

F. Kühn had never even heard about the existence of the sniper badge, while he was a quite promient sniper in the "Götz von Berlichingen" division.

The design was known from contemporary publications, which as such vary in style/design.

ml

[MM1985]

A really interesting thread.

I read the book about Josef Allenberger ablout 6 months ago in german. I think most of you will know it.

Sniper on the Eastern Front: The Memoirs of Sepp Allerberger
in german: Im Auge des Jägers

I can still remember that i read in the book he got the golden sniper badge with the Award document together and he sent it home to his parents because he was afraid if he get captured by the russians with this document and award.

In the book are 4 Award documents from Allenberger shown and 1 Picture in black and White from his sniper badge.

1.) the ISA document

2.) the wound badge in silver document

3.) the document for the sharp shooter badge 1, 2nd and 3rd class all in one document - it is dated 02.03.1945

4.) the iron cross 1st class document


Maybe anybody knows if this documents are real and in which collection they are? Allenberger died in 2010 Siezenheim near Salzburg about 100 km away from my hometown.

Regards

[markus]

Me and Kühn at the 2002 "GvB" reunion in the "von Berlichingen" castle.

Enjoyed having breakfast with him and his wife the following morning.

Sorry, I value information more based on primary sources, rather from "hear-say" of collectors who want to "believe" rather than "know"...

Quality before Quantity. Facts better than assumptions...

...but everybody has there own collection standards.

Cheers,
Markus