Pab p&l l/18

[Thomas Durante]

Thanks for the follow up Norm, very helpful to see the pieces of the puzzle in this thread.

I do see some differences on the P&L IABs versus the catalog image. But as you say, its the best match compared with any other IABs. But as far as the PABs go, they are a spot-on match. The only difference I can see is the eagle's legs, they appear more-squat in the catalog image vs. the actual badge. But again, its the best match.

I think this is the best way forward, those who think the link is sufficient can take comfort in called the badges out by maker. Those that don't think there is enough evidence can continue to call them "uknown maker" or "attributed", etc. Continuing to put out the evidence in a clear, concise way in these threads is helpful for future reference and collectors can read them and make up their own minds.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

The only difference I can see is the eagle's legs, they appear more-squat in the catalog image vs. the actual badge. But again, its the best match.

Than you must be a blind man my friend....

[Andreas Klein]

If you want to believe instead that none of them actually made it to market and they all disappeared completely and that KVK1 with the "Sport badge" setup was actually manufactured by B.H. Mayer then that is your right.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm
Read my post again I was talking only about the Frank + Reif iab which is talked to a rare Petz + Lorenz iab to make some extra money with it.

Ever thought about the point that perhaps the iab was the problem child?

[fitzy]

Congrats a great looking and rare badge!

[Norm F]

Here's another interesting observation (to some anyway). This design of IAB also comes with a variant setup with lilypad hinge and slender square-wire catch. Interestingly, the P&L U-Boat can be found with the same setup.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Than you must be a blind man my friend....

Very nice Andreas.......very professional. A new low for you.

Tom

[Graeme]

Here's another interesting observation (to some anyway). This design of IAB also comes with a variant setup with lilypad hinge and slender square-wire catch. Interestingly, the P&L U-Boat can be found with the same setup.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm

I know you made the above comparison to strengthen the "P&L" connection in this thread, but I thought I would post this set up for you to see from an "Oberstein" design. For me this is interesting because imo whoever made the set ups you showed probably made the set up on the "Oberstein" design IAB. The set ups look identical in the way the main pin is soldered and the way the small hinge pin pokes out either end, as well as the catch looking identical. So although this set up is quite recognisable, it is not necessarily exclusive to any particular maker.

[Graeme]

Hi Guys

Can one of you please post one of the P&L marked sports badges that has the set up seen on the L/18 marked KVK, with this type of "fat" pin

Thanks

cheers
Graeme

[Graeme]

Very nice Andreas.......very professional. A new low for you.

Tom

Hi Tom

That seems a bit harsh. I am sure Andreas' comment was tongue in cheek.

We all have commented rashly in the past. Why don't you kiss and make up

cheers
Graeme

[Norm F]

Hi Norm

I know you made the above comparison to strengthen the "P&L" connection in this thread, but I thought I would post this set up for you to see from an "Oberstein" design. For me this is interesting because imo whoever made the set ups you showed probably made the set up on the "Oberstein" design IAB. The set ups look identical in the way the main pin is soldered and the way the small hinge pin pokes out either end, as well as the catch looking identical. So although this set up is quite recognisable, it is not necessarily exclusive to any particular maker.

Hi Graeme,

I agree that the badge you posted uses the same complete setup seen on the P&L-attributed IAB and PAB and GAB) on occasion. With the U-Boat comparison, I wasn't suggesting this setup was exclusive to P&L, only that it was one setup that does appear on P&L products since there is no other known candidate for the P&L U-Boat that exactly matches the P&L catalog.

The setup alone on the IAB does not prove the attribution but it narrows the list considerably, and then when taken together with the obverse design you get a more compelling story in my opinion. Again, each can draw their own conclusions.

Here's the same setup on the PAB that matches the P&L catalog.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hi Guys

Can one of you please post one of the P&L marked sports badges that has the set up seen on the L/18 marked KVK, with this type of "fat" pin

Thanks

cheers
Graeme

Hi Graeme,

As far as I know the pre-war P&L Sports badge uses only the flat-surfaced main pin shown here. But this pin is also used on the P&L U-Boat badge which bears the three variant reverse setups seen below, so P&L obviously changed things up a bit (as did many other makers). And all of the top four badges in this compilation use the same distinctive spiral catch as well.

So P&L used all three setups on their U-Boat which are found on a variety of other products pictured in their catalog.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

As a brief aside, on the topic of the P&L spiral catch that appears on the KVK1, U-Boat and Sports badge, it's interesting to note that although there are catches on other maker's products that look quite similar, it appears the P&L is consistently distinguishable from the others when examining both ends of the spiral.

The closest match (so far) on another maker's product is on the Schickle U-Boat and Spanish Crosses which is interesting considering we know from original documentation posted previously by Karsten that the proprietor of P&L was formerly with Otto Shickle's firm. But even there the inner curl is possibly a bit shorter than on the P&L.

Of course these catches don't appear on the Heer badges but I just threw this in to complete the discussion on the P&L-attributed KVK1 shown by Graeme.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Very nice Andreas.......very professional. A new low for you.

Tom

Thanks for the comment ... simply open the eyes and compare badge and picture. Attached is a compare between the picture of the catalog and the Frank&Reif which you want so sell as the "closest match so far".

Even without a deep study you can quickly encouter 13 (!) differences between the real badge and the picture. The differences can be divided into two levels:

1. the minor differences marked with a circle

and

2. the massive differences marked qith a square

If i only look at level 2 than i can see a totally different design like:

- a different head design for the eagle
- different leaves
- a fiiled area between rifle and swaz
- missing iron sights at the rifle

So all at all the Frank&Reif design is totally different to the one in the P&L catalog and calling it "the closest match" is ....

[BassD]

...we know from original documentation posted previously by Karsten that the proprietor of P&L was formerly with Otto Shickle's firm. .Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm, that ist not true. Pleas read carefully...

als langjähriger Vertreter und Fachmann bei der Firma Otto Schickle, Pforzheim, habe ich mich am 1. Nov. 1939 in gleicher Branche in der Firma Petz & Lorzens... selbständig gemacht.

That means that he was a sales agent when he works for Schickle. And that he was now a independent sales agent wo sales the products from Petz und Lorenz. In German we call that a "selbständiger Handelsvertreter" who has the order for one or more firms to make business. He works in other name and for other acoount and not for himself. For every deal he make he get a bonus

When he was the proprietor of P&L there must be stand... mit der Firma selbständig gemacht and not... in der Firma... a litte but important difference from with and in

Nothing more and nothing less... but that is the problem when people are not undestand Germand docs right.

And now happy forensic with the needle systems... im out

[Andreas Klein]

... we know from original documentation posted previously by Karsten that the proprietor of P&L was formerly with Otto Shickle's firm.
---Norm

Hi Norm,

i think there is a misunderstanding in the german language with that subject. We in germany would translate "proprietor" with business owner and that is not correct in that case.

Walter Lehder was only a travelling salesman who work for Otto Schickle and than worked later for Petz & Lorenz so the document posted by Karstens says:

"So far i sold stuff from and for Otto Schickle, now i'm selling stuff from and for Petz & Lorenz".

The document is nice for sure but worthless for any maker connection.