Pab p&l l/18

[Kulms]

Hi,
Added this rare badge to my small PAB collection. How do You like it?
Best regards

[Giel VW]

I think you are an extremely lucky SOB

Crazy rare piece, congrats my friend

[Kulms]

Thanks

[Graeme]

A beautiful looking badge

best regards
Graeme

[Andreas Klein]

Perhaps a stupid question: why is the thread namend "P&L = Petz & Lorenz"???

The badge shows the L/18 LDO code of B.H. Mayer ...

[all1knew]

Hello there,

In my opinion this is a standard BHM produced badge and has nothing to do with P&L.

While a theory exists that BHM took P&L stock when they stopped production this is do to actual P&L patterns of badges showing up with a L/18 maker mark on them. This badge is of a BHM design.

William Kramer

[Giel VW]

Hello there,

In my opinion this is a standard BHM produced badge and has nothing to do with P&L.

While a theory exists that BHM took P&L stock when they stopped production this is do to actual P&L patterns of badges showing up with a L/18 maker mark on them. This badge is of a BHM design.

William Kramer

That's incorrect my friend, the P&L PAB's have a clear flaw at 1 o' clock which the "normal Mayer" PAB doesn't have!

Do you still have pictures of your L/18 marked KVK1? That's a badge which shows very simularly what happened. And this badge also wasn't made by BH Mayer, but by P&L!!

@Andreas, do you also think that L/18 marked pillow crimp wound badges are made by BH Mayer then?

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Giel,

i can only smile about the mentioned flaw ... which was identified via the illustration in the sales catalog of P&L if i remember it right and it's imo as good as the information the Otto Schickle was jewish.

That B. H. Mayer was the maker of the pillow crimp wound badge is the only logical conclusion of the fact that it can be found in masses and therefore i think that they were made by them.

Do you have another opinion about that Giel?

[Giel VW]

Hi Andreas

So... then Mayer also made the pillow crimp PAB and IAB!

Using your strategy this must be a real dificult one for you then I guess

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Giel,

those double marked L/15 stuff with another Pforzheim based maker is no problem ... it's logical and proven with wartime documents. We have documents saying that Otto Schickle (L/15) was allowed to bring his remaining stuff to the market under control of the IHK Pforzheim.

So it is no big surprise that some stuff ended there with an L/21 (Förster & Barth) marking even if you know that Mr. Barth (of Förster & Barth) was the leader of the IHK Pforzheim

If you continue your search you will find some L/15 marked stuff which has an L/52 (Zimmermann, Pforzheim) on it ... and again not a big surprise if you take into account that Förster & Barth and Zimmermann know each other from their label "Liefergemeinschaft Pforzheimer Ordenshersteller".

So i get no headache seeing L/15 marked stuff together with another maker mark of the Pforzheim area ... pure logic by wartime documents.

Have you seen similar documents for Petz & Lorenz? Where they allowed to bring their unfinished stuff to the market??? I have never seen such a prove ....

Have you seen any documents explaining us why only B.H. Mayer was the lucky firm to get it hands on the Petz & Lorenz stuff (if there really was something).

So... then Mayer also made the pillow crimp PAB and IAB!

I can't say that and i didn't say it in the past but why not??? .. is it impossible because the Vienna design idea would be false than???

Correct my if i'm wrong but somewhere here in the WAF there is a picture of a pillow crimp IAB with an L/21 marking on it, so we have at least 2 Pforzheim based makers which were able to produce with a pillow crimp setup.

[Chet Sowersby]

Wonderful! A highly desirable example to a PAB collector.

Chet

[Giel VW]

Hi Andreas

Of course these things are logicaly proven with documents! But it's not because there are no documents these things never happened. And I'm not only looking to this particular relation here.

I would really like to bring this cross into discussion but can't find more pictures:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...ight=P%26L+kvk

About the flaw 1 'o clock, I wasn't refering to any catalog. It's clear to see that this PAB design was made by two makers, therefore if you accept Mayer being the maker of this PAB, this P&L design is just something else! This is even more clear on IAB's.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Giel,

sure and fully accepted but i became carefull with flaws as prove for different makers. I you will make a close study on badges of one and the same maker than you will encouter different designs by one and the same maker aswell.

For example Klein & Quenzer used several tools for the wound badge at the same time and they are all different if you count flaws and other things but they are all made by Quenzer (thanks that Quenzer maker marked them).

So a flaw could be the die from another maker - accepted .... but it could be another working die from one and the same maker aswell. Therefore clear is nothing because we speak to often of unmarked stuff which we link to a maker and than built in a second step our rules.

I'm aware that Frank & Reif IAB's are supposed to be made by Petz & Lorenz too and than marked by B.H. Mayer .... but all this is pure theory at least for me.

[Giel VW]

Hi Andreas

I of course agree with a lot of what you say! Your first paragraphs are the logic behind what we collect.

On the other hand you are an extreme skeptic when it comes down to attributing makers to certain designs, and that's a position you take in this hobby. Some do different, and it has yet been proven that some things were 100% correct and solid, and yes errors were also made, but if you don't accept certain things in this hobby it won't bring you any further just by judging on document. It's a process and it's been paying off as well. Please take this as a very personal opinion of mine and not as any insult.

And I think you are not really aware of the amazing differences between the P&L IAB and the "Schickle/Mayer" IAB if I read so? You can not say that "a simple flaw" there makes it just a set of other dies. This badge is really different!

[Thomas Durante]

Perhaps a stupid question: why is the thread namend "P&L = Petz & Lorenz"???

The badge shows the L/18 LDO code of B.H. Mayer ...

Hi Andreas,

I had a similar question not too long ago, here is a good thread were Norm explains it very well why these L/18-marked badges are not made by BH Mayer:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=L%2F18+p%26l

Tom