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    #46
    Hello Normann,

    thanks for the link and the images!

    I send flowers to S & L for the many thoughts I could have because of the company.

    I think the covers with my records for needle system of S & L, I'm starting with the Spanish Cross copies of S & L already in the 50s.

    Had to sometimes one posted here in the WAF.

    Is always a good topic with S & L.

    Greeting Hans Günter

    Comment

      #47
      I've SPK where this needle system can be used, but these come from Souval.

      Gruß LC

      Comment

        #48
        I think Norm has done a wonderful job, both in this and the other thread now running on S&L hardware, in explaining what to look for. Both of these should be pinned.

        Comment

          #49
          Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post
          I've SPK where this needle system can be used, but these come from Souval.

          Gruß LC
          Hi Hans Günter,

          Yes, the same system (but with the solid hinge block) occurs on Souval products from the same time period when there was some cooperation between S&L and Souval. Not only on the Spanish Crosses (like Matthieu's seen here) but also the blank core Souval EK1 with the S&L frame (this is Nigel's). Probably both of these are from the early to mid 1960's.

          Best regards,
          ---Norm
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #50
            Yes I see exactly the same. These are the same pieces and variations I have in my archive copies.

            The needle systems previously seen from the other.

            I can only then apply, very nice work from you.

            Greeting LC

            Comment

              #51
              Oh, that reminds me I still have a copy of Panzer Badge of LC. The variant is full of material and also with the needle system.
              This have the copiers do not have a stamp CE Juncker Berlin SW made​​.

              show time tomorrow pictures, too late now sleep the same one!

              greeting LC

              Comment

                #52
                Hi Guys,

                I just realized that not all of the post-war S&L LCTBs have the dent flaw beside the nose of the skull mentioned earlier. Here's one from an old post that lacks the flaw. This one has the solid hinge block which makes it earlier production than the one shown previously. Perhaps that flaw developed over time from a gouge in the reverse die?

                Best regards,
                ---Norm
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #53
                  Another S&L with the early 1960's setup with the solid hinge block and without the nose flaw.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #54
                    Hello Norm F,

                    they show my thoughts to the Wiedmann piece.
                    I'm now even more to the idea of ​​the so-called Wiedmann the pieces have nothing to do with the manufacturer. And more are among S & L.
                    Whether it's post-war pieces I trust myself not to say at the time, but the thought just comb it very often.

                    It is I always noticed that the needle system differ slightly. And the needle hoes never fits.

                    Also I do not like in pieces the entire surface, it fits so not too early pieces from the manufacturing time from 1939-40. I think because by no badge was produced. These variants look more like late pieces, when compared with pieces from the period end in 1945 or later.

                    Also bothers me a point especially!
                    There is only one book where I see the pieces ILLUSTRATION, and from a dealer. No textbook or old book is familiar to me.

                    The images are taken from the front of Orner images for comparison, can just as well show O.Schickle pieces. Because of I'm even 100% convinced.

                    A major point is that to me too much pieces are known in collections. Time and again on this piece, often in very good condition.

                    I have 2 other versions for 20 years used to get them, but this version I had already often can buy.
                    Many collector friends who also collect legion Condor, this variant does not want to have in their collection.

                    Again at the end, I'm not convinced whether it is post-war pieces. But with the pieces I have a really bad feeling.

                    Greeting LC

                    Hans Günter

                    Comment

                      #55
                      Wiedmann Nadelsystem

                      hello,

                      would like to come on a play which I think is 100% for a copy.
                      It should show the original Spanish model.

                      This is really interesting, the Wiedmann the needle system is used then due.

                      Greeting LC

                      Hans Günter



                      Comment

                        #56
                        Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post
                        hello,

                        would like to come on a play which I think is 100% for a copy.
                        It should show the original Spanish model.

                        This is really interesting, the Wiedmann the needle system is used then due.

                        Greeting LC

                        Hans Günter
                        Hi Hans Günter,

                        I agree that does indeed look like a cast reproduction of the "Type 1, 1st pattern" LCTB with the scallop-flanged sheet metal hinge used to confuse the viewer.

                        As such, it's not really relevant to this thread which deals mainly with S&L's LCTB but I'll post it also in the other thread on the Type 1 badges.

                        Best regards,
                        ---Norm
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #57
                          Hi Norm F,

                          I do think it's important you draw so compare with Wiedmann needle system. And the piece that I have shown is something to think about and strengthen your thesis to Wiedmann.

                          Since the needle system is indeed where used otherwise.

                          Greeting LC

                          Hans Günter

                          Comment

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post
                            Hi Norm F,

                            I do think it's important you draw so compare with Wiedmann needle system. And the piece that I have shown is something to think about and strengthen your thesis to Wiedmann.

                            Since the needle system is indeed where used otherwise.

                            Greeting LC

                            Hans Günter
                            Hi Hans Günter,

                            Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

                            We really should stop ever calling this hinge the "Wiedmann" hinge and should never call the LCTB the "Wiedmann badge". It's quite clear that the hinge used on the LCTBs is not the type used by Wiedmann although it is used on a variety of badges that are NOT made by Wiedmann (as I tried to explain in post #41).

                            Here is a comparison showing the clear differences. That's why I no longer say the "Wiedmann hinge" when talking about the LCTB and instead I say the "scallop-flanged sheet metal hinge".

                            This same hinge was used on the fake Type 1 LCTB in posts #55-56. Interestingly, the same hinge was also used on this post-war assembled S&L S-Boat with a fake "L/18" mark on it.

                            Best regards,
                            ---Norm
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                              Hi Hans Günter,

                              Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

                              We really should stop ever calling this hinge the "Wiedmann" hinge and should never call the LCTB the "Wiedmann badge". It's quite clear that the hinge used on the LCTBs is not the type used by Wiedmann although it is used on a variety of badges that are NOT made by Wiedmann (as I tried to explain in post #41).

                              Here is a comparison showing the clear differences. That's why I no longer say the "Wiedmann hinge" when talking about the LCTB and instead I say the "scallop-flanged sheet metal hinge".

                              This same hinge was used on the fake Type 1 LCTB in posts #55-56. Interestingly, the same hinge was also used on this post-war assembled S&L S-Boat with a fake "L/18" mark on it.

                              Best regards,
                              ---Norm
                              hello,

                              we think exactly the same.

                              sorry my bad english.

                              I've always been of the opinion that the pieces are not of Wiedmann.
                              I always think in direction O. Schickle at the pieces, when a picture is taken comparison.

                              The name Wiedmann for the pieces quickly made known, as you can clearly see this needle system. And so many collectors have a piece.

                              Both pieces are shown in Niemann catalog, I personally think is not good.

                              Niemann at the first model is from the front ok, but the needle system is not suitable to the first model Spain.
                              I have never seen such a piece in real as shown by Niemann.

                              In Niemann called the second model I consider a S & L product. Whether or original postwar until 1945 I can not say at the time.

                              From this second model on 20 pieces were presented only here in the forum and in a few others, and I know a few in collections that have never been presented. I am also not a piece known what was coming with a secure group or from the Orner family.

                              Unfortunately I have no good opinion to pieces.

                              Greeting LC

                              Comment

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post
                                hello,

                                we think exactly the same.

                                sorry my bad english.

                                I've always been of the opinion that the pieces are not of Wiedmann.
                                I always think in direction O. Schickle at the pieces, when a picture is taken comparison.

                                The name Wiedmann for the pieces quickly made known, as you can clearly see this needle system. And so many collectors have a piece.
                                ...

                                In Niemann called the second model, I consider a S & L product. Whether original until 1945 or postwar I can not say at the time.

                                From this second model on 20 pieces were presented only here in the forum and in a few others, and I know a few in collections that have never been presented. I am also not a piece known what was coming with a secure group or from the Orner family.
                                Hi Hans Günter,

                                We can definitely eliminate Schickle from this discussion, since the Schickle design is quite different and verified in their wartime catalog.

                                The badges that until now have been mistakenly called "Wiedmann" or "Wiedmann-like" need a new name going forward from here. It takes too long to say "the badges with the scallop-flanged sheet metal hinge", so I propose calling them the "S&L-like" LCTB. As I described earlier in this thread in post #43, their obverse design is most similar to the post-war S&L design, although not an exact match.

                                They could still be S&L's wartime version. We know S&L offered one in their catalog (without a photo) and we've just been waiting for one to be identified. But even if they're not made by S&L, "S&L-like" is a good name for them considering the close homology to S&L's post-war version.

                                Best regards,
                                ---Norm
                                Attached Files

                                Comment

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