Interested in tackling the GB numbered PAB's?

[Jeff V]

Hi Jeff. I learned a while back never to totally discount the stories of vets (or guys like Bob who talked to 100s if not 1000s of them). I wonder what the result would be if we examined the JFS (marked and unmarked) badges in the same manner.

Hi Don, you mistook my post. I never said to discount the story of a vet. Also, I totally respect Bob for the effort that it took to build his amazing collection. My point is- a lot of years have passed from the end of the war to the time Bob or anyone of us collected these items. Vets memories fade and they can lie just like everyone else in the world. As a former police, Bob especially should know that eyewitness accounts are sometimes unreliable, and need to be taken in context with the evidence. All the more so after a minimum of 25 years.

The marked and unmarked JFS have been studied with this level of scrutiny, if not more. best wishes,
jeff

[Don D.]

Can you point me to the thread on the JFSs please?

[Jeff V]

Can you point me to the thread on the JFSs please?

Hi Don, Rather than one thread like this one there are many threads dealing in detail with the marked and unmarked JFS numbered badges. If you seek knowledge on these I recommend the search function. Also on GCA I started a thread comparing the marked to unmarked examples. I'm sure you will also find that one helpful. best wishes,
jeff

[Don D.]

There used to be alot of individual threads on the G.B. numbered badges also. In fact quite a few that were thought to be good in those threads were later condemned in this one. It was only after bringing all the known information into one thread were some able to form thier own opinion on what was real and what wasn't. I've never seen the JFSs handled the same way and I think you see more of them than the G.B. badges.

[Ron C.]

I had this one posted before. I have a bit better equipment now, so I am putting it up again. The number 50 is not really small, as someone commented before, it is mounted off center low. If it was properly centered I think it would fit the frame as others do. I am still not much better with the caliper...I suppose age, and a bit shakey has something to do with it. When I try to check the readout it slips. I get varying reads, and I am not sure which part of the jaws to put on the badge...the front, which is thinner, the flatter thicker part in the middle, or the back part, which is notched out and produces at smaller number.

I get from 61.91 to 62.20 height; 48.52 to 47.36 overall width; and 45.63 to 45.56 wreath measurements.

I have tried to get shots of all the areas that seem to be of interest.

Ron

[Don D.]

Interesting, acorn cups are dotted, flaw on the back, pin has tool marks.... What is really interesting to me is that your rivits appear to be the same color as the parts of the badge.

[Jeff V]

Hi Ron, I have to say "well done" for these outstanding pictures.
Now the badge itself. Everything is very close to the type 1 but a little different. The hardware has minute differences. The tank does not have as much detail as the type 1. Compare the rectangular area around the left headlight with the type 1. It is not nearly as detailed. On the other hand the wreath looks pretty good with nicely dotted acorns. I could say this was a different die than the type 1 but why the different hardware and rivets. Also a problem I have is with the finish. There is none. These badges almost all seem to fade pretty bad but finish is usually present on the hinge, catch, and solder. Your badge never seems to have gotten any finish at all. Lastly I don't care for the look of the numberbox on your badge. best wishes,
jeff

[Don D.]

Jeff, is there no room in your opinion for any other variation than the SC Type 1? Show me another badge where we only have one accepted variation. Of course for those that own a type one that is good news.....

[Jeff V]

Hi Don, numbered badges were not made in the quantity of a regular war badge. When we look at the numbered JFS for example- there is the exact same hardware used on every example. The ones that have different hardware are fake.

I am open to different examples, provided they have at least some characteristics of the type 1.

I have explained what my concerns are on Ron's badge, please tell us why you believe in this badge.

In a nutshell, I can't say for certain your badge or Ron's is a fake. All I can do is point out some differences. After that it is up to each to make up his own mind.

Lastly here is a photo of a GB flak badge currently for sale on the e-stand by Frank Ferrini. Pay careful attention to the mark left where the pin was rolled to go around the hinge pin. It is an exact match to the type one numbered GB. best wishes,
jeff

[Jeff V]

Sorry- here is the pic

[Don D.]

Jeff, I don't know if any of them are good. In this entire thread only one badge is purported to be directly from thr recipient.

As for the number of badges made, who knows how many were ordered? They made them up to the end for sure. What government person was going to point out that the war was lost and it was a waste of money to keep producing them?

As for the GB Flak you show, it also has the correct shaped hinge to fit into the hinge well on the reverse of the numbered PAB. This is something missing on most type 1s.

[Don D.]

Oddly enough it is the type hinge found on the one purported to be directly from the recipient. But look at the catch on that one. It is different than the others.

[Don D.]

So where to we draw the variation line with regards to reverse hardware? The hinge? The catch? The pin? The rivits? If only a few were produced then theoretically they should all be exactly alike but the one thing this thread has shown is that they are not.

[Don D.]

Now if you want to look at other GB badges look to the GAB, another Heer badge. It has no mark on the pin.

[Don D.]

Or perhaps this Luft Flak: