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**Philippe DB** · 07-04-2006, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by robert60446

To be honest, hinge from Phil’s badge reminds me Afrikan hero’s products…

Robert please

, Afrikahero wasn't arround when this was made, and take another look his wrap arround hinges are given away because the are so FAT, for sure not because they are FLIMSY, So Skip's features this type of hinge.

But anyway this is crazy, leave the guy out of this when he sells GB's it will be the type that Frank posted, the easy stuff

KR
Philippe.

**robert60446** · 07-04-2006, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

Robert please

, Afrikahero wasn't arround when this was made, and take another look his wrap arround hinges are given away because the are so FAT, for sure not because they are FLIMSY, So Skip's features this type of hinge.

Ok, Phil forget this, check my post#255...the point is: 2 different badges, but we can link them, we have something to work with, some common points and etc...Just like we can link standard Style I badges with eachother...

**Hans N** · 07-04-2006, 05:54 PM

something came to my mind when i saw that Philippe was questioning the crosshatched acorns. As he said it´s more or less impossible to make those by hand on each and every of the badges.

This is a longshot but...

if you do it the other way around then. It´s very clearly seen that the details of the acorns is very weak on some of the badges then why not fix the dotting or we can call it remake the acorns in the die one more time... and thus the crosshatching appears....

In the technical aspect this would be possible, wouldn´t it? But did they have the means to do it?

We´ve seen traces of features on badges that can be explained with a repaired die before... so remaking the acorns would be possible as i see it.

Keep up the good work

**Philippe DB** · 07-05-2006, 02:44 AM

Mornig Guys,

Well a new day and back again with some new thoughts on the subject.

Untill now I left these badges out of the comparison because it was already difficult enough without them on the one hand but also because the pics I had weren't really good enough. However thanks to Giel I looked at such a badge on Shea's site and what I can see is good enough to reach some "partial conclusions.

I'm confident that some of you are aware that these GB exist, both partialy and completely without the rivets holding the panzer and number box. The numberbox in that case is attached by prongs. Supposedly these are very very late war badges, the last of the rivets were used to pop together the last of the 109's and nothing was left for the badge manufacturers.

If we indeed accept that these are the last of the last it would be nice to know what type of accorns they feature, if there was evolution, wear and tear, re-working on the dies this would have to be visible on these badges if there was only one die.

Well I can't show you detailed pics of the accorns on such a badge but by showing you the pics of one, at the moment for sale by Bill Shea, you will all recognize one feature that links all type I badges together.

The distinctive tool marks on the pin bend. Even from these small pics I hope you agree with me that these badges features a Type I pin.

If the pin is there chances are real that the "Dotted" pattern will be there.

So what is the only logical conclusion if this indeed is the case. The die and hardware survived untill the end. Only if you accept that two completely different dies were used could any other type become original.

The only way to proof the second die theory then would be to find the typical type one pin on such a badge. Not something we have been able to do so far.

KR
Philippe

Attached Files

GB 50 no rivets o.jpg (86.4 KB, 258 views)

**Philippe DB** · 07-05-2006, 02:45 AM

no rivets and prongs holding the number box

Attached Files

GB 50 no rivets r.jpg (74.7 KB, 259 views)

**Philippe DB** · 07-05-2006, 02:46 AM

And the most important picture featuring the "Pin Marks"

Attached Files

GB 50 no rivets pin.jpg (86.2 KB, 267 views)

**Philippe DB** · 07-05-2006, 02:48 AM

one more in the same category (they still had a few rivets left). Lousy pic but enough to see that the distinctive pin mark might well be there.

Attached Files

GB 25 prongs r.jpg (20.1 KB, 264 views)

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-05-2006, 03:36 AM

I understand Frank's point about the die having to be modified with "standing ridges" to create the cross hatching, but what about other common PABs that clearly have altered dies. Just off hand, I can think of the Wurster PAB, we have at least 4 different types of grass patterns in the early "w" marked PABs alone. Wouldn't this take as much die altering as the cross hatching?

Tom, I did not only make a point that the crosshatching would have to be THEORETICALLY produced by standing ridges, but even more important, we can see with our eyes and with our common sense that the crosshatching is NOT the product of standing ridges in the die, it is the product of SCRATCHING the lines in. If more than one badge have the exact same scratch lines, this would mean that it was done on one master badge and others were cast from it.

**Anthony** · 07-05-2006, 05:07 AM

Dear Philippe,

What about the BRONZE 50 GB that Bill Shea has, how does that compare?

Regards,

Anthony H

**Philippe DB** · 07-05-2006, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by Anthony

Dear Philippe,

What about the BRONZE 50 GB that Bill Shea has, how does that compare?

Regards,

Anthony H

Dear Anthony,

Well the pics aren't the best but for my it falls in the same catergoy as his mint examples posted above, with the pin mark clearly visible. Since he has two of these "no rivets + prong" type I could imagine that he aquired them together.

To be absolutely sure we would need to see close ups of the accorns but somehow I have a feeling that they will show the dotted pattern.

KR
Philippe

**robert60446** · 07-05-2006, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

So what is the only logical conclusion if this indeed is the case. The die and hardware survived untill the end. Only if you accept that two completely different dies were used could any other type become original.

The only way to proof the second die theory then would be to find the typical type one pin on such a badge. Not something we have been able to do so far.

Amen! Thanks for posting these pictures Phil.

**Philippe DB** · 07-05-2006, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by robert60446

Amen!

Hi Robert,

Well being the proud owner of another then type I GB numbered PAB, and in the light of the evidence in front of us, I'm beginning to fear the worsed.

Unless somebody comes forward and proofs me completly wrong (please no vet storries and COA) I'm afraid that a few million worth of $ invested in GB PAB's has gone up in smoke.

This must be one of the biggest/oldest scams badge collectors have ever witnessed and without a doubt, left over stock as well as original dies, be it crudely re-worked, were used here.

As far as I'm concerned the circle is closed, but I invite everybody to add his opinion and make a case that proofs me completely wrong.

KR
Philippe

**robert60446** · 07-05-2006, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

This must be one of the biggest/oldest scams badge collectors have ever witnessed and without a doubt, left over stock as well as original dies, be it crudely re-worked, were used here.

You are absolutely correct Phil. People were excited about rounder RK scam, but this one beats rounder by hundred thousands of dollars!!! IMO, this is the biggest scam of the century!!!...

**Bob Hritz** · 07-05-2006, 02:19 PM

I have always believed that there was a great deal of production of 3rd Reich era badges and medals done by the original makers (or others who obtained the dies) after the hostilities ended, on May 8th, 1945. Everyone who is familiar with Steinhauer and Luck and Rudolf Souval knows that the postwar production of awards was done to sell or barter to souvenir hungry occupation forces. Even the dagger companies, notably Firma Carl Eichkorn, made daggers post-war and sold them to the soldiers. A perfect example are the elaborately engraved 'Field Day 1945' daggers that were prizes for US soldiers in athletic competetions.

I have little doubt that left over parts and complete new badges and medals, made after May 8, 1945 are a large part of those resting in collections, today.

I do not think there are enough of the type-2 GB marked PABs, other than the currently produced castings that can be found anywhere, to conclude a vast conspiracy of fake badges. I believe these are most probably retooled dies and forging molds that were used to make badges and medals for occupation troops.

Bob Hritz

**robert60446** · 07-05-2006, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz

I do not think there are enough of the type-2 GB marked PABs, other than the currently produced castings that can be found anywhere, to conclude a vast conspiracy of fake badges. I believe these are most probably retooled dies and forging molds that were used to make badges and medals for occupation troops.

Bob,
Whatever method was used to produce these other then type I GB PAB's, the amount of them spread through all over the world is amazing. If discussion like in this thread could only took place even just a few years earlier I can only imagine how much money and nerves could be saved...
The bottom line is, we are smarter today then we were yesterday. Knowledge is priceless Bob, the war against fakers will continue. What is only scary to me like in this case we were playing “catching up” game instead of staying one step ahead of the enemy…

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