Bronze 25 PAB

[robert60446]

Dear Phil,
As Ivan said, for many years this type of numbered PAB’s was cursed, so lot of collectors never really pulled trigger on those. It is my deep believes that posted by Anthony and you examples are indeed original. There are hundreds of excellent fakes out there based on this type; however it is easy to distinguish them after careful examination. Fakers were good, but not that good. Unfortunately I don’t own any fakes of this badge so I cannot post there pictures here (and pictures in my data base are not mine). Let’s hope that some members will step forward and we will have some ammunition to shoot here.
Ps. guys, can either one of you post good pictures of hinge?

[Anthony]

Dear Robert,

Thanks for your positive comments, I will do a pic of the hinge for you as soon as possible. Ivan is very busy at work so hopefully in time he will be able to answer, but I think he will say the same as what Robert has just said that these were cursed, but maybe from mis information etc .

Regards,

Anthony

[Frank Heukemes]

I will also echo this. I believe the examples shown by Philippe and Anthony to be originals. Unfortunately the plethora of fakes of these 25 and 50 numbered badges has been modeled after this type. In comparison to these fakes, many things can be identified which are unique to the fakes and many things can be identified which are unique to the originals, despite the very strong similarities.
This general type of numbered PAB has at least two makers.

I have handled Philippe's badge several times over a period of some months. Totally different base metal, finish, believable wear and some small differences compared to the fakes of this type.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys,

Ok what do we have

Type 1

The silver one in Anthony's compare or the one in my other thread. This is a 101% original badge that I have seen in more then one grouping directly obtained from veterans. In general very detailed, made of low quality zinc with a halfway decent finish and comes both with and without the area between eagles wings and paws cut-out. Although the fabrication style is the same its not the same design as

Type 2

The easiest way to differentate between the design is to focus on the Panzer canon. On type 2 "straight" on type 1, 10******176; elevation. IMO this excludes that type 1 was used to make the copy being type 2. Besides this easy to spot feature there are many more differences. Otherwise detailing on type 2 is less good then type one but the quality of the zinc is much better on type 2. And finally type 2 only comes with solid area between wings and paws

Now all the features for both types described above can also be found on the copies. For type 1 no problem , this badge was used to make the copy of type 1.

However this becomes difficult for type 2. As Frank wrote the copies of type two are very good but not a 100% match to what we believe to be the originals.

But if the badges we consider original are also (be it different) copies the question to answer would be: Which badge was used as an example to make these copies?. For sure it couldn't have been type 1 but has to be a copie of a copie!

Hope everybody still follows. It would be easier to post pics but I won't do this at the moment because it would be much more usefull to work with badges that we didn't already look at.

KR
Philippe

[Bob Hritz]

Mine is the type with the cut out wings.

Bob hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Verso

[Bob Hritz]

Verso-pin opened

[Philippe DB]

Mine is the type with the cut out wings.

Bob hritz

Classic type 1 Bob very nice example, no problem but where are the type 2's

KR
Philippe

[Bob Hritz]

Eagle detail. Either the die was polluted or the eagle took damage to the beak.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Number 25 detail.

[Bob Hritz]

Phillippe,

The more closely I examine my example, I believe the poor detail to the eagle's beak is the result of a damaged die. The type 2 could well be the re-worked die of the type one. if you will notice, on the 2 bronze examples posted, the beak is strangely smooth, like a die was repaired and not fully detailed (as I recall there was a war going on). I do find it hard to believe that these badges were manufacured by 2 different firms, unless one firm bought out, or recovered the dies, of another firm.

The difference in the elevation of the cannon barrel is more difficult for me to explain, other than a completely new die.

It would not be difficult to believe that a factory may have been relocated to a safer environment, and dies cleaned, reworked, or replaced as necessary. We do see deterioration and reworked dies on various General Assault and Tank Assault badges, so this could be a reasonable explanation.

I look forward to further discourse, on this subject. I have only the 25 PAB and 100 PAB, by this maker; both silver grades. All the others, and all the bronze grades, by this maker, have elluded me.

Bob Hritz

[Philippe DB]

Morning guys,

Ok I didn't expect this to be a walk in the park but won't give up that easy.

Although I don't have dozens of these badges in my files something just dawned on my. All type I badges in my files are Silver and all type II badges seem to be Bronze.

Won't even ask for Type II in silver but maybe somebody has type I in Bronze in his collection or files

KR
Philippe

[Philippe DB]

per request some more detailed picturs of the hardware and some other details.

All comments welcome

KR
Philippe

[Philippe DB]

2

[Philippe DB]

3