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**AZartman** · 12-20-2005, 11:53 AM

#1. M. Miller's Kampfwagen Abzeichen. Solid backed. " It is yet a third version with the solid back."

#2. Posted by J Temple-West from D. Nieman printed piece I believe. Hollow back model with marked pin (silver content?)

#3. Possible Otto Schickle style badge based on a catalog depiction from a period Otto Schickle catalog owned by Gordon Williamson. Features a marked pin 800.

Per the most recent discussion, I thought this was interesting to look at. I'm simply pointing out similarities in pin shape. The way it comes up near the hinge then dips a bit and tapers near the end.

I just hope these photo compilations serve as a valuable future reference.

I think it is fair to say that we don't really know actual costs associated with creating dies in the '30s and '40s in germany taking into account it was a war time economy.

Attached Files

KampfwagenRev_vs2.jpg (72.9 KB, 242 views)

**Tiger 1** · 12-20-2005, 01:09 PM

Interesting thread.

German industry in the Ruhr Valley and elsewhere comprised of many varied companies that would use dies in the manufacture of their goods. Most of the more established concerns employed in house die cutters to make them. From medals and decorations to uniform insignia and accoutrements to heavy dies for weapons forging, etc. Skilled die cutters were not lacking and their ability to produce finely detailed items from these dies when required. This is very evident from buttons to cannon breachblocks. Producing various dies for specific manufacturing needs were amortisized in the cost of doing business and would be of minor expense if produced in house by salaried workers.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

**AZartman** · 12-20-2005, 01:22 PM

Thanks Tony- more good info. Alex

Originally posted by Tiger 1

Interesting thread.

German industry in the Ruhr Valley and elsewhere comprised of many varied companies that would use dies in the manufacture of their goods. Most of the more established concerns employed in house die cutters to make them. From medals and decorations to uniform insignia and accoutrements to heavy dies for weapons forging, etc. Skilled die cutters were not lacking and their ability to produce finely detailed items from these dies when required. This is very evident from buttons to cannon breachblocks. Producing various dies for specific manufacturing needs were amortisized in the cost of doing business and would be of minor expense if produced in house by salaried workers.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

**robert60446** · 12-20-2005, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Tiger 1

Producing various dies for specific manufacturing needs were amortisized in the cost of doing business and would be of minor expense if produced in house by salaried workers.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

Very interesting notes Tony. I agree that the die creation cost could be very easily absorbed by the big companies, however we have to remember that badge manufacturing was a business and if I knew that some other company is already making these badges and I know that I may only have little more then 400 customers, then you have to ask where is the logic here to invest my time and the money in something like this?
Unfortunately Tony we can only speculate about these reasons…unless you have a time machine and you are ready to share it with me...

**Tiger 1** · 12-20-2005, 03:24 PM

Robert,

Shhhhhhhhhhh...............!

(Get your helmet and parachute and we'll go for a ride!)

Tony

**Sal Williams** · 12-20-2005, 03:25 PM

Hi guys,
It occurs to me that it could be quite possible that they authorized a number of companies to make this and perhaps paid to have them made. we are equating it to the system of government contracts in the U.S. Maybe the German government paid to have a few of these compaines make thier first combat badge? Then die costs wouldn't be a problem.
But secondly maybe there was anticipation of a large # of LCTB's being made, after all don't we only call them that because a new style of PAB was introduced? Was it known that this would not remain the standard tank badge for many years to come with possible thousands and thousands of recipeints?

Best, Sal

**AZartman** · 12-20-2005, 03:58 PM

I should have test results by late in the week, or by early next week. Just got off the phone with an appraiser from Antiques Road show, Mr. Zavian. Ironically, his good friend collects german daggers. cheers.

**robert60446** · 12-20-2005, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Sal Williams

But secondly maybe there was anticipation of a large # of LCTB's being made, after all don't we only call them that because a new style of PAB was introduced? Was it known that this would not remain the standard tank badge for many years to come with possible thousands and thousands of recipeints?

Best, Sal

Sal,
From my understanding, the Condor Legion Tank Badge becomes official award in July 39. But the improved version of the badge (2nd pattern) wasn’t produced before mid 1940. At that time silver PAB (with totally different design) was already in the hands of the tank crews, so from the beginning IMO there was no intention to make from the LCTB design a future PAB…

**AZartman** · 01-06-2006, 02:11 PM

Silver Testing complete here are the results.

I just got back from my lunch hour getting the badge tested;

I had the badge tested in two different ways, first by chemical scratch and acid test and second by an electronic surface testing in a machine. I only have a print out of the electronic test results as I cannot show you a print out of the chemical test results. That was done by hand today.

The chemical scratch test procedure was performed by a well known appraiser for the Antiques Road Show here in the U.S., named Mr. Zavian at Cluster Jewelers on 48th street in Manhattan in the heart of the jewelry/diamond district. He performed the test, and he has 60 years of experience at the jewelers bench. He stated it was coin silver from Europe at 800 or a bit above. It came back on the gray color level. (see below)

TESTING FOR SILVER

Scratch the piece to be tested over the surface of the black stone provided, press well so as to leave a LARGE AND THICK visible deposit, preferably a line of one to one-half inches long. Transfer a drop of the silver solution to the scratch made, The color reaction of the solution with the metal scratch will be as follows: (Take into consideration that the background of the test stone is black).
90%-100%= Creamy color
77%-90% = Gray color

I then went next door for electronic testing at Harold Wallace Precious Metal's Corporation, 27 West 47th street in Manhattan. They have the machine to perform a surface test using some sort of electronic sensing. They place it in a machine under vacuum and you wait two minutes and it shows a graph of the metals surface composition. Those results were as follows,

Cu 4.93 (wt%),
Zn 0.08 (wt%)
Ag [SILVER] 94.99 (wt%)

When I have a scanner available, I will post a scan of the test results.

Thus the electronic surface test showed a silver content higher then sterling 925. A purity of 95%.

What have we learned here?

First, for those who own a Condor Legion Badge, get it tested both ways and report back. That would be nice wouldn't it?

Second, we have a well respected jeweler and appraiser who has worked the bench for 60 years doing a chemical test on the item on a black stone and declaring it coin silver from Europe. He also has no self interest in the the item at all.

Third, we have an electronic machine performing a surface test declaring a purity of 95% silver. The machine clearly has no interest as well.

Funny isn't it? What have we resolved here?

Here are the facts.

The badge is silver. The pin is stamped 800.
Two different silver tests show different results in terms of purity level.
The obverse closely matches known examples
The badge's weight and construction material match other examples.
The hinge and pin on said badge closely match several examples of Imperial era badges shown earlier in the thread.
The badge closely resembles a badge printed in a known manufacturer's catalog , Otto Schickle.

I have done what I can.

Thanks to all.

Alex

**AZartman** · 01-06-2006, 02:14 PM

Silver Testing complete here are the results.

oops, double post. sorry.

**Robin Lumsden** · 01-06-2006, 02:36 PM

Great effort Alex.

**Robin Lumsden** · 01-06-2006, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Sal Williams

?
Maybe there was anticipation of a large # of LCTB's being made, after all don't we only call them that because a new style of PAB was introduced? Was it known that this would not remain the standard tank badge for many years to come with possible thousands and thousands of recipeints?
Best, Sal

Sal.
That is actually a VERY good point!
I've never come across that theory before, but it has merit to it.

**Don D.** · 02-13-2006, 07:04 PM

Some more info to digest and discuss.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post1278276

**AZartman** · 02-13-2006, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by ddoering

Some more info to digest and discuss.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post1278276

Don-

In all seriousness you have revived my first contentious thread on the LCTB which was not closed

.

I believe what you have found is a legitimate talking point. I look forward to further research.

AZ

**AZartman** · 04-11-2006, 08:40 AM

I cam across this period example (photo) today of an LCTB being worn...

"Here is another photo, scanned from the Bender book 'Uniforms, Organization and History of the Panzertruppe' by Roger James Bender and Warren W. Odegard (1980), and this photo is on page 190, and shows Oberfeldwebel Rudolf Vogt, with non regulation skulls." [Originally posted by Bob lyons]

...and LCTB

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panzer portrait.jpg (13.1 KB, 113 views)

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