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**AZartman** · 12-19-2005, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Sal Williams

Wow guys! I have never seen Frank try to rip apart sombodys badges or thier name,..ANYWHERE,...EVER! I am absolutly positive you are both misunderstanding his comments and motives! It is absolutly possible these are real lctb's. But the fact that they came with a lot of other high end fakes( not a comment on Alexs reputation at all) makes Franks re examination of them valid. He said nothing out of line and it is a pleasant knowlege that Frank is out there using his skills and knowlege in our behalf. Please guys no need to worry about Frank being out to get you, he does not operate that way.

Best, Sal

Point taken Sal. I just want to clear this up,

"But the fact that they came with a lot of other high end fakes"

Only mine did. I have no idea where Brian got his.

**Frank Heukemes** · 12-19-2005, 07:59 AM

Hi Alex,

Good that it is non-magnetic, it looked a bit like that on your pics. Yes, silver is non-magnetic. But probably the pin is not made from silver, as it is quite soft.

**AZartman** · 12-19-2005, 08:05 AM

Thanks for answering that question. What were pins typically made of?

Gotta go to work. Thanks

Alex

Originally posted by Frank Heukemes

Hi Alex,

Good that it is non-magnetic, it looked a bit like that on your pics. Yes, silver is non-magnetic. But probably the pin is not made from silver, as it is quite soft.

**Frank Heukemes** · 12-19-2005, 08:14 AM

Hi Alex,

It could actually BE silver (this way the stamp on the pin would make sense) or it could be Tombak or a white metal. All of these metals are non-magnetic.

**AZartman** · 12-19-2005, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Frank Heukemes

Hi Alex,

It could actually BE silver (this way the stamp on the pin would make sense) or it could be Tombak or a white metal. All of these metals are non-magnetic.

---

I see. Would it make any sense if the badge was silver and the pin was NOT, that they would still stamp the pin 800 to indicate that the BADGE itself was silver?

I'm not familiar with silver stamp markings or protocol.

I'm asking around for a reputable jeweler here in New York City (Manhattan) who could test the badge without damage and provide some sort of certification that it had been tested. I'll need to be clear with them that it is an item of potentially significant historical value.

Alex

**robert60446** · 12-19-2005, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by AZartman

---
I'm asking around for a reputable jeweler here in New York City (Manhattan) who could test the badge without damage and provide some sort of certification that it had been tested. I'll need to be clear with them that it is an item of potentially significant historical value.

Alex

Alex,
tested for what?

All the jeweler can tell you is that your badge is made of silver or not…Is this what are you looking for?

**AZartman** · 12-19-2005, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by robert60446

Alex,
tested for what?

All the jeweler can tell you is that your badge is made of silver or not…Is this what are you looking for?

---
Hi Robert-

You will note that this was a question that was raised. I am doing my best to try and answer that question. Is it 800 silver or not? I will find out.

**AZartman** · 12-19-2005, 10:10 AM

I have contacted Barry Weber. He should be able to help. He is more then qualified to determine silver content.

BARRY WEBER
President & CEO
Edith Weber & Associates
994 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10021

Barry Weber is President of Edith Weber & Associates of Madison Avenue in New York. Edith Weber Antique Jewelry has specialized in fine antique jewelry for more than 40 years. The company also concentrates on the field of historic jewelry, and has bought and sold jewelry belonging to notables such as George Washington, Lafayette, Napoleon, Lord Byron, Dolly Madison and many figures of European royalty. Jewels from Edith Weber & Associates have been worn on the Academy Awards and Golden Globe Awards broadcasts and have been seen gracing the covers of major national magazines such as In Style and People.

Mr. Weber is a member of the Appraisers Association of America and the Jewelry Historians Society of America. He has taught antique jewelry appraisal classes at several colleges and universities, pioneering a series of revolutionary hands-on seminars teaching the intricacies of the identification and evaluation of antique jewelry to novices and seasoned industry professionals both. Mr. Weber created and supervised the institution of jewelry-vetting standards for all antiques shows managed by the Antiques Council of America and is Chair of the Jewelry Standards Committee for the Los Angeles Antiques Show.

**robert60446** · 12-19-2005, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by AZartman

---
Hi Robert-

You will note that this was a question that was raised. I am doing my best to try and answer that question. Is it 800 silver or not? I will find out.

Hi Alex,
then you should have no problems. Most of the jewelers should answer to this question. Good luck.

**AZartman** · 12-19-2005, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by robert60446

Hi Alex,
then you should have no problems. Most of the jewelers should answer to this question. Good luck.

Thanks Robert-

I will share with Forum members what I find out. Feels like forensic science...

This may all come out to be for nothing, but worth a try. Doesn't hurt to try.

Cheers

Alex

**Jeff V** · 12-19-2005, 11:36 AM

I have no ax to grind here, one way or the other. My question is how can anyone look at a blurry catalouge picture and make any definative predictions onto a badge. Their simply is not enough clarity.
jeff

**AZartman** · 12-19-2005, 11:45 AM

Mr. Barry Webers refered me to Kevin Zavian:

KEVIN ZAVIAN
Master Jeweler
Consultant Appraiser
Cluster Jewelry
48 West 48th Street, Suite 1501
New York, NY 10036

Kevin Zavian is a third generation jeweler following in the footsteps of his father, Berj, and grandfather, Carney. He has worked the bench at the family shop since 1979. Now a master jeweler he is repairing and restoring ancient, Renaissance, antique, period and contemporary jewelry and watches. They are also involved with light manufacturing and will celebrate their 75th anniversary this year.
Mr. Zavian works as a consultant with the jewelry and watch department of Doyle Galleries in New York City. His duties include cataloguing and authenticating.

Mr. Zavian received his B.S. degree in marketing and business from West Virginia University. He is a member of the Appraisal Association of America and the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors.

He also participates as an appraiser on the PBS television series ANTIQUES ROADSHOW.

**Frank Heukemes** · 12-19-2005, 01:00 PM

Alex,

The jeweller does not have to be a genius to be able to say if the badge is made from 800 silver. But I agree, better to find a serious one. He will NOT be able to help with originality of the badge even if he is an appraiser of antique jewellery.
To see if the badge is indeed silver is a first step. If it is NOT silver, that practically condemns it. And no, it would not make much sense to stamp a pin with a silver mark unless the pin is also silver (at least this is my guess, going by experience).
Even hollow pre war badges (such as the silver rider's badge) have been stamped directly on the BADGE when they are made from silver (like the 990 silver rider's badges).

**AZartman** · 12-19-2005, 01:39 PM

Yes Frank. I want a reputable jeweler so regardless of the result it will be taken seriously. Second, I will ask him to test the pin to see what it is. No, I don't expect an antique jeweler to determine if a piece is authentic or not. That is not the goal.

I thought this was interesting,

"The 800 mark is a general European standard - very common in the Germanic countries - for the lowest (with a few rare exceptions) acceptable silver purity."

-Society of American Silversmiths.

**Frank Heukemes** · 12-19-2005, 01:49 PM

"The 800 mark is a general European standard - very common in the Germanic countries - for the lowest (with a few rare exceptions) acceptable silver purity."

Sure it is a typical German mark, but international fakers know that too. If the mark was 925, we could have stopped this discussion long ago.

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