Unique and rare FJ helmets.

[Perry Floyd]

Not unlikely at all. Like I said I've made purchases to prove that theory wrong.

[Willi Z.]

Unlikely doesn't mean it can't happen.....it does mean it is not likely, not promising.......not the normal outcome......... to say it is likely is quite the imaginative stretch and a rather promising outcome..... A camo FJ helmet (or any other) is more likely to have come from a US veteran who picked it up or traded it in the Western theater, than one that was picked up from a US veteran who recieved it in trade from a Soviet veteran, who had picked it up in the East. Can't imagine anyone debating that issue.....

[Perry Floyd]

No but it happens..I know first hand..the point is, if I get a call from someone who's wifes father was given a fallshirmjager helmet as a kid from a vet which at the time happened to be his neighbor. And now the man who owns the helmet has no idea where the helmet was picked up at in WWII. And is also a camo helmet in the "Normandie style" gives this helmet no providence that it was at Normandie or took part in any of the Normandie battles..none whatsoever....
The story above is one I made up on the fly, and a pool of scenerios that could happen. More often than not, especially in the last 15 years, items change hands several times before they get to a knowledgable collector. Then the story is allmost allways lost or at best second hand with something maybe added or forgotten..
Judging the providence of a helmet based soley on the camo pattern is impossible. A educated guess is the best a collector can do.
If I purchase a original camouflaged (matt green/tan/sawdust, etc.) fallshirmjager helmet at a estate auction and then calling it a Normandie camo helmet is wrong. I'm making a assumption that this helmet was at the Normandie battles..
Normandie camo is used too loosly in todays market....

[Willi Z.]

This reminds me of trying to debate an issue with a liberal...

I clearly said it can happen...it is still UNLIKELY!

Regarding what you think is right or wrong........who cares??

Most agree that the rule regarding camos is that they can not be placed in regards to the exact campaign. But to every rule there are exceptions. And the issue is the Normandy green/tan sawdust camos is that this is the exception. The presence of this particular and common camo pattern is tied to the FJs of von der Heydte's FJR6...and especially the 1st Battalion (I/FJR6) of that regiment. There are collectors who have more depth to their area of interest...they study these things....they draw conclusions based on networking with the most advanced collectors in their area of interest, and based on observations and veteran contacts.

It's a shame as my intent to start this thread was to see some cool helmets, not have the "thought Polizei" continue to repeat the same logic without comprehending what is written by others.

WZ

[SMP]

Normandy pattern camo..

Willi,
As you say , the sheer number of identical tan/green/sawdust camos coming from American Normandy vets points to them all originating from a single unit whose helmets were camouflaged as a job lot, either by a single man or a group of men working to defined scheme. You say they were probably from 1/FJR6. I must take you back to the helmet i described with AFRIKA on the liner. This was 100% identical to the camos we have been discussing...
..Do you think this man had previously served in 11/FRJ5 and then transfered to 1/FJR 6 or were elements of FJR5 fighting along side FJR6 in june/july 44 ?
I realise we are all just guessing at the end of the day ,

Regards,

Steve.

[Perry Floyd]

Steve, I don't believe they were. FJR6 was with the 91 Luftlande-Div. on June 6th then later on attached to the 2nd SS Panzer-Div.
That was the only Fallshirmjager Regiment attached to those Divisions. John, Willi or Eric could probably confirm that as it's their area.

Mr. Zahn..there's no need to let things get personal. I've tried to show my viewpoint with as much fact as I can. If it's not to your liking I'm sorry.
"who cares?" I hope young and upcoming collectors, as wether you realize it or not they look to people like you for advice, honesty, experiance and leadership in their field of interest. Don't mislead them into thinking something is right when it's not or at best uncertain.
My position on the Normandie camo is clear so I'll say no more on it....

[Willi Z.]

As Perry mentioned, FJR6 was initially attached to the 91st Luftlande Division effective the middle of May '44. This relationship was short lived due to the Normandy airborne attacks. By 11 June '44 FJR6 was attached to the 17th SS PG Division near Carentan.

Steve, in regards to your camo having "Afrika" written in it, there is no way to know other than speculation. The survivors (from the Russian Winter of '41/'42) of the first 3 battalions of the Sturm Regiment (I,II and III/LL Sturm Rgt.) formed FJR5 at the end of '43. The 4th battalion, IV/LL Sturm Rgt., went on to form FJR6...in fact I think they formed II/FJR6, which used the "Blaue Komet" as it's "Traditionseinheit". So, it is possible that a veteran of Afrika served in FJR6 in Normandy. The other connection would be the Ramcke Brigade, whose former members were also heavily present in elements of the 2nd Fallschirmjäger Division, especially FJR6. So, anything is possible.....

Perry, your comment about leadership and new and upcoming collectors is very valid. But, many of these collectors will never see the direct veteran contact of the item they may own...in regards to how it made it back to the US. These collectors deserve to know how and who, and from where, these items made it back. They will most likely not be able to go to a show and watch, as I did, a US 101st Veteran bring in 6 FJ tan/green sawdust camos, of which 4 had draw strings covers in place. Though the covers were in tatters, and the helmets were so badly stored over the years that they were heavily rusted......witnessing events like this (which I have since the early '60s when my dad used to take me to shows) do allow for a logical conclusion to be drawn in regards to a pattern having been established. There are just way too many of these camos, and too many confirmed veteran stories to dismiss the theory. In fact, to further form an opinion, many of these tan/green sawdust camos were covered by draw string covers.........mine mint example of a tan/green sawdust camo (named to an Oberfeldwebel) had the cover on when I received it form the veteran's son. The cover had never been removed, and only then could you even tell it was a camo underneath. Luckily for me the helmet was stored in a dry midwestern state.

With the absence of clear written evidence in this hobby, to ignore the opinions of those who study this very passionately, and to ignore examples of direct veteran contact which confirm the theory, it is not fair and objective to just dismiss the logical conclusion as another example of often wrong conventional wisdom. This same thought process is now being used to dismiss most, if not all of these green subdued Luft decals being present on FJ helmets.........and others. At first it seemed possible, as the decals are clearly WWII era. But now, the origin of these helmets is suspect and these helmets lack that veteran connection.

My opinion is clear on the Normandy tan/green sawdust camo.......don't know of any advanced FJ helmet collector who disagrees (a rare moment in itself!) with this assumption. There are many more dangerous and misleading myths in this hobby to combat.

On another note, it was nice to see Seba again at the Union show yesterday. Rather amazing that we live so close. I also, for those FJ camo helmet fans, got to see and authenticate a rather unique FJ camo which came right out of the woodwork yesterday. One of the cleanest ones I have encountered, and so completely "as picked up". Will get pics of it soon as it went to a friend of mine. A paritial sawdust with several shades of dark tan and brown.......about 98% (yes 98%) camo...liner was very light but alittle dry at the edges...a cool piece! I think we should now call it a "Tunisian camo"........only kidding! No story goes with this one.

Willi