Unique and rare FJ helmets.

[Perry Floyd]

The rust wouldn't worry me in the least. what I do find interesting is the Normandie camo. What qualifys a helmet to be named a Normandie camo?

[John Hodgin]

Normandie camo pattern

Hi Perry,

This helmet and others like it have a common green/tan painting scheme, with sawdust and usually very matte. US veterans remember picking these helmets up in Normandy. A 'twin' of this helmet was removed from a Fallschirmjaeger Leutnant at St. Mére Eglise by a US veteran friend, who still has the helmet and the Leutnants Soldbuch.
best,
John

[SMP]

Jacques ( and Willi ),

here is the STALHELM forum link:
http://communities.msn.com/stahlhelms18961956

There is a thread running on RONR's collection, and he is promising to post photos of some of his favourite FJs soon..

Be warned, KEN who runs the forum expresses his views in an interestimg way !

Regards,

Steve

[SMP]

Normandy pattern camo..

Hi John,
I too have such a Normandy camo, tan/green sawdust ( from Bill Shea ). The thing is such a helmet was sold on E-bay 6 months ago, and written on the liner was the word AFRIKA. I know the helmet was genuine. Does this mean the same scheme was used in Tunisia or did some of the FJs who served over there end up in Normandy ? What are your thoughts ?

Regards,

Steve Pledger.

[Perry Floyd]

Tan/green camo pattern is common on the Russian front and on the Italian front as well. Afrika and southern Italy (Sicily) tend to be a light tan to a meduim tan. Sometimes with brown and/or green highlights. But still this is just educated guesswork as placing a helmet to a pacticular front by the camo scheme is impossible.

[John Hodgin]

Fj camo paint

Not so Perry. Yes, green with tan was used on other fronts. However, what is referred to as Normandie camo is unique to France at the time of the invasion. Unlike the Heer, the Luftwaffe painted their helmets on a company level. This is the reason you will see entire Fj squads with identically painted helmets. Period photos of jager in France show them with freshly painted sawdust/matte finish helmets. It is doubtful that Russian helmets were painted exactly the same way. Afrika helmets are usually, but not always, differnet from those painted in Italy. Italian theatre camo often used tri colors, but in Afrika only tan was used to camo jump helmets. Tan was often oversprayed lightly leaving some original green showing so the helmet had a multi color look. Other times helmets were painted solid tan, again on a company basis. This is confirmed by members of Rgt. 5 and the Ramcke Kampfgruppe. If Steves is sprayed mostly green it isn't an Afrika camo, but it may have been in Afrika with tan paint. In other words, was once tan but re-camo'ed over the tan paint again.
Best,
John

[Perry Floyd]

I respect your opinion John but still have to disagree. A camo helmet tells alot but will not give you 100% assurance as to what pacticular front it saw service. For instance the whitewash FJ helmet. Would it be correct it saying it's a Russian front winter camo helmet? Or a Battle of the Bulge camo FJ helmet?
But what it does give you is a clue as to where it might have been. I once owned a M40 Luft camo that was tan with sprayed red/brown spots in several places. I felt very strongly that this helmet was a southern Italian campaign camo. But am I 100% sure? No, but it would probably be the best guess which is all you can do when going on the camo alone.
I too would agree with you on Steve's helmet......

[John Hodgin]

Different camo's, different helmets

You are totally correct Eric. Let me make a an amendment. From now on, when I refer to a "Normandie camo" it's because I know the provenance of that helmet. That is, it was picked up in Normandy, France by the US vet that brought it back. It's unlikely to have been freshly painted in Russia. A tan jump helmet picked up at El Alamein by an Australian vet in Nov. of 1942 IS a Ramcke Brigade helmet, not a generic tropical jump helmet.

Also, would like to add that many shades of tan was used in Africa, from yellow/tan to brown/tan.

Steve, can you post a photo of your helmet here? We would all like to see it.
Many thanks,
John

[John Hodgin]

More on camo's

Hi Perry,

Didn't mean to call you Eric, but it's definately not an insult. Typing in haste and making errors, sorry. The only two authentic white wash helmets I know of were picked up during the Battle of the Bulge by US vets., so to me than's what they are, not merely snow camos. Guess I'm overstating my point, but you get what I mean.

Best,
John

[SMP]

Normandy pattern camo..

John,
can't post pictures,but here is a link to a photo of my helmet when it was still on Shea's site: sorry its along link and probably won't fit..

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/militaria-helmets-lw-para-camo-htm

If you get there, mine is the upper of the 2 helmets. Definately Normandy (sawdust) camo in my eyes. The helmet i saw on E-BAY was identical (sawdust /colour etc...) and it had AFRIKA on the liner.

Regards

Steve PLedger

[SMP]

Normandy pattern camo..

Sorry link too long , try:

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/militaria-helmets.htm

..then go to Luft helmets and Luft para camo helmet..

SP

[Willi Z.]

Was away for a few days, but thought I would add to the comments. The chicken wire on that helmet is very unconvincing. The rust is too active, and looks as if it was left in the rain.....as many are when bad wire is added. The rust from the wire then bleeds onto the helmet...always a bad sign. Not real patina on the wire nor does it appear to be galvanized. Wire that is 60 years old and not galvanized never looks like this.

On the Normandy camo FJ helmets, I agree with John 100%. Knowledgeable FJ helmet collectors know that most of these green/tan sawdust camos have originated from the Normandy campaign. Hell, you can even pin many down to I/FJR6. Mine came back from a US 2nd ID vet. I once watched a 101st veteran bring 6 (yes 6) of these camos into a show and sell them........4 still had draw strings covers in place. Sadly, they were all in very bad shape. Mark Bando has seen several that 101st veterans he knows have brought back. George Petersen's came from the 101st museum. I/FJR6 was almost completely wiped out in an engagement with the 101st and there are pictures of 101st guys carrying helmets like these by the handful. I can honestly say that I have seen 3 dozen of these Normandy camos over the years... I have never seen any that when recieved directly from the veteran that DID NOT come from Normandy

If there is any camo helmet I feel comfortable about placing in regards to the campaign, it is these tan/green camo sawdusts. The paint is all the same.........same large pattern........all appear to have been painted....then sawdust rubbed into them...then painted again. Tan/green camo helmets common to the Italian theater don't have as much green as these. I would never attempt to directly place a Italian vs Tunisia helmet........but many seem to think that the difference between Ramcke helmets is more unique then those others. Unlikely that a snow camo, or most other camos, is from the Russian front.....how would they get over here? I realize this may now start comments about dealers in Sweden and Russia finding them in Russia.....no comment.

Generally, as some kind of conclusion, I would say that in the majority of cases regarding camos you can not conclusively place them. But, these tan/green sawdust camos are the exception. These appear to have been done on a rather large scale and very common to members of FJR6. Other than that, the 2 known Sturm Regiment helmets are known to have come from FJR12 and from Italy.

SMP: Will have to check out that site and the guy you mentioned. As you know, because of the one who talks nothing but nonsense, I keep away from that site. The info on FJ helmets is normally very incorrect. Shoot me an email some time.

Willi

[Willi Z.]

Hi Steve,

I didn't know that Kenhas his own site....:-). I did check out the pics of Ron's helmets and saw many of his FJ ones in there. Would have to see some closeups to see what he really has. I do see alot of really nice non-FJ helmets. Thanks for passing the link.

Willi

[Perry Floyd]

Items from the Russian front were making their way to the U.S. as soon as the war ended. I know as I've purchased items from U.S. vets who obtained them in trade from Russian soldiers. So it's a very likely scenerio to have a camo helmet from the Russian front...
But bottom line, from looking at the camo alone you cannot place a helmet with 100% certainty. The best you can do is give a educated guess. Therefore the correct statement would be to say a "Normandie style camo" or "Normandie type pattern"...

[Willi Z.]

I would say, and I think most would agree, that it is more likely to find what is considered by advanced FJ helmet collectors to be a Normandy tan/green sawdust camo that came from a US veteran who picked it up at Normandy, than it would be to get a camo helmet from a US veteran who was one of the very extreme few who encountered Soviet soldiers and traded with them in 1945....and divide that by the few Soviet soliders who even bothered to pick up a helmet to be able to be in a position to trade one. The latter being a very UNLIKELY scenario. Unless the Soviets were using helmets to wash in.

WZ