Convolut CCC Gold very nice and rare

[Richard]

My French leaves a lot to be desired but doesn't the French paper state he was released from the military on April 30, 1945 (which the other paperwork seems to indicate) and released from us (meaning by the French) on May 17, 1945. Does this actually mean his release from the military was when his incarceration as a POW began?
Richard V

[walter1010de]

These papers need more Research.

I still believe that this is a true CCC GOLD convolute. Not a "Crystal clear" one of late 1943 with all the "necessary" stuff, but this is only a question of the value or price of these papers.
A well-known German dealer sold recently CCC GOLD convolutes for a few thousand EUROs...

The CO of the 719. ID was permitted to give the CCC GOLD to his soldiers, but not the GC in Gold. So he only awarded the CCC Gold and not the GC in Gold.
If this would be a fake, someone would have added the GC in Gold as well.

Who is " GÄDE " or " GÖDE " who signed the Soldbuch-entry???
Maybe a Major, maybe a Captain or a Lieutenant who signed that document?
As I said: more research will bring light in this...

[naxos]

After careful evaluation I have to say that the CCC gold entry is in my opinion not authentic.

[Berra]

So this is how much you value your word given to the veteran widow...

[beufighter]

So this is how much you value your word given to the veteran widow...

Berra i think hes only showed this because the widow has passed on and i suppose there are no living relations otherwise it would have been passed down.
bear in mind also this thread is nearly 3 years old

[Berra]

Ok might be a language problem, if that's the case please disregard my comment.
/B

[naxos]

After careful evaluation I have to say that the CCC gold entry is in my opinion not authentic.

The CCC Gold entry is dated April 22, 1945 and signed by the commanding officer of the 719. Infantry Division "Gäde, Kommandeur der 719. ID"

At the US National Archives is a list of German officers taken prisoner by the 80th US Infantry Division near the town of St.Wendel on March 18, 1945. Listed among the officers taken prisoner that day is the commanding officer of the 719. ID Generalmajor Heinrich Gäde.

The 719. ID ceased to exist as an Infantry Division on March 18, 1945 after most of its staff officers were taken prisoners.

Weinland was never taken prisoner by the Americans. He never spent any time in an American POW camp.

He was discharged from the Wehrmacht six weeks later on April 30, 1945 in Homburg.

Homburg was located in the French occupation sector.

Weinland reported to the French authorities and was released on May 17, 1945.

After March 18, 1945 Weinland never saw Gäde again.

Since Gäde was taken prisoner on March 18, 1945 he could not have signed Weinland's Soldbuch five weeks later.

The CCC Gold entry is an unfortunate act of vandalism in an otherwise superb document.

.

[mufasa]

After careful evaluation I have to say that the CCC gold entry is in my opinion not authentic.

really compliments Naxos for the passion, the method, the determination, the knowledge, of your analysis ....

[walter1010de]

The CCC Gold entry is dated April 22, 1945 and signed by the commanding officer of the 719. Infantry Division "Gäde, Kommandeur der 719. ID"

At the US National Archives is a list of German officers taken prisoner by the 80th US Infantry Division near the town of St.Wendel on March 18, 1945. Listed among the officers taken prisoner that day is the commanding officer of the 719. ID Generalmajor Heinrich Gäde.

The 719. ID ceased to exist as an Infantry Division on March 18, 1945 after most of its staff officers were taken prisoners.

Weinland was never taken prisoner by the Americans. He never spent any time in an American POW camp.

He was discharged from the Wehrmacht six weeks later on April 30, 1945 in Homburg.

Homburg was located in the French occupation sector.

Weinland reported to the French authorities and was released on May 17, 1945.

After March 18, 1945 Weinland never saw Gäde again.

Since Gäde was taken prisoner on March 18, 1945 he could not have signed Weinland's Soldbuch five weeks later.

The CCC Gold entry is an unfortunate act of vandalism in an otherwise superb document.

.

The CCC Gold was awarded by the CO of 719. InfDiv, that is right. And this was not Major General Gäde, that is also right.
But the 719. InfDiv was created again in April 1945 after it was destroyed in March 1945.
General Gäde was POW that time but what about the possibility that another, new CO of the new 719. InfDiv awarded the CCC Gold and a officer of the HQ staff signed that in the SB on 22 April 1945. And maybe this staff officer had a similar name like the former CO, GÄDE or GÖDE ?

[naxos]

General Gäde was POW that time but what about the possibility that another, new CO of the new 719. InfDiv awarded the CCC Gold and a officer of the HQ staff signed that in the SB on 22 April 1945. And maybe this staff officer had a similar name like the former CO, GÄDE or GÖDE ?

Impossible!

The 719. Infantrie-Division was rebuilt in April 1945 from an entirely different unit with only a small group from the old 719. Division.

The Division 405 was renamed into 719. ID on April 18th near Biberach (southern Germany) .

The commanding officer of the new 719.ID was Generalleutnant Willy Seeger.

If the entry from April 22, 1945 was original, it would have been signed by Generalleutnant Seeger or perhaps Generalleutnant Karl Faulenbach .

Read this:
"Zur Verteidigung des Kinzigtales war die Division Nr. 405 zuständig, die am 18. April 1945 in 719. Infanterie-Division (ID) umbenannt wurde. Den Befehl über diesen Truppenteil hatte Generalleutnant Willy Seeger. Die französische 9. Coloniale Infanterie-Division drängte die 719.ID weiter das Kinzigtal hinauf.
In der Tagesmeldung des XVIII. SS-AK, dem die 719. ID unterstand, vom 19. April 1945 wird als Feindschwerpunkt angegeben: „Aus dem Raum Gengenbach beiderseits des Kinzigtales bis Biberach. Biberach nach hartem Kampf 20.15 Uhr von Gegner genommen."


The CCC Gold entry in Weinland's Soldbuch is a proven forgery!

.

[naxos]

Here is the supporting documentation from NARA showing that the commanding officer of the 719.ID during April 1945 was Generalleutnant Seeger.

.

[naxos]

I have to make a small correction to one of my earlier posts.

Heinz Weinland was not discharged in Homburg (his hometown).

The document says that he was discharged to go to Homburg.

He was in fact discharged from the Wehrmacht in the vicinity of Leutkirch on April 30, 1945. His unit fought there on the 26 of April for the last time. Note that his French POW document also says Leutkirch.


I think I have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the CCC Gold entry is a forgery.

However, if you want to hang on to your wishful thinking that is your prerogative.



.

[walter1010de]

...why should a CO of a Division sign an award entry in a SB?
Usually this was done by subordinate officers like the Company Commander etc.
Maybe the Division CO signed the CCC award document but most likely not the entry in the SB.
So why is it that important to draw all attention to the COs of the 719. Div?

As stated in the SB: ...verliehen durch... means ...awarded by.

A KC entry in a SB is also never signed by Burgdorf, Maisel or others...

I see that this CCC Gold entry is questionable but not for the reason that the entry of the award was not signed by the "right" General...

[naxos]

...why should a CO of a Division sign an award entry in a SB? Usually this was done by subordinate officers like the Company Commander etc. ...

Good question!

.

... I see that this CCC Gold entry is questionable but not for the reason that the entry of the award was not signed by the "right" General...

I agree!
You are right, it was not signed by the right or the wrong General but by someone forging the wrong General's signature.



.

[naxos]

However, if you are implying that another officer, that just happend to have the same name as the former commanding officer of the Division, signed for the current commanding officer of the Division, you are wrong.

Every signed Soldbuch entry has besides the signature the rank and position of the signee.

Note the previous (original) entry for the CCC-silver award is signed: Krebs, Major und Bataillons-Kommandeur

Let assume this "Gäde" signature is not a fake Generalmajor Gäde signature but another officer's by the name Gäde - where is his rank or his position?