Convolut CCC Gold very nice and rare

[Ian Jewison]

Is this Gäde's signature?

[Wilco Vermeer]

I only see some similarity between the signatures, but no certainty that it is the same.
No an imprisoned general was formally not permitted to do this awarding, which whtat I do not state it did not happen, but formally it was not permitted.

I indeed think the close timespan within the two decorations (silver and gold) makes it suspicious without having the confirmation of the close combat days. This just means that there is no way to verify if the awarding was even possible for this person.

I do not state he didn't receive it, but I am not convinced of the authenticity of the entry in the soldbuch.

Summarised, the signature is not clearly to be seen as authentic to me. The fact that an imprisoned officer signed is strange. No secondary verification by CCC days or other sources can be found. To much thing makes me just suspicious. It could be, but without other confirmation like the close combat days it is almost impossible to verify.

[Justin P]

Length of Service Added, might account for the jump from Silver to Gold? I have NKIG Winners Document. He is not listed as a DKIG Winner. just my thoughts on these Two points Mentioned.

[Wilco Vermeer]

Even though he should have a sufficient amount of CCC days to accompany the awarding. What could be is just speculation and no verification.
Still more doubt I get when I compare the signature of Gäde in the soldbuch with others I have found on verified documents.
And it still does not explain how the soldbuch could heave been signed by someone that was at that moment a POW.

[REDVIPER]

Fact is that he was not a listed CCC Gold holder

Fact is that he goes in Homburg in US Prison with his Major and Btl Kommandeur Jebs or Krebs I don´t can read he signed his CCC silver entry and Major Gäde goes too in prison in Homburg


I don´t can say if he have to this time enough fight days to got the CCC in gold but I have a many documents and Wp or Soldbooks in that the soldier got two class of CCC on the self day

Maybe after the silver CCC the see that he have enough fight day for the gold CCC ( to this time the have more too do than listed fight days )

But maybe he got the CCCgold us present from his Commander and have not enough fight days

But that is all the same I has the book of private got and no collector see that before and that the man make the entry self I do not believe


@Wilco On 30 april was the most Division commander only Major or Oberst and I see german cross entrys the was only signed by captain , the most send not a paper to Berlin for that was the most are not listed us real holder .Remember the most awards after march 45 was not listed KC ,GC or CCC gold to this time have HH or AH any other to do

[Ian Jewison]

Well one thing is for sure.....if you say Major Gäde, then it is not the Division Kommandeur Generalmajor Gäde that signed the Soldbuch!

/Ian

[Wilco Vermeer]

Fact is that there is no verification possible that he was entitled to receive the CCC gold.

Fact is that the signature of Gäde is at least suspicious and doubtable comparing it with known originals.

Fact is that this makes it a possible, but also a doubtable recipient.

Fact is there is no proof the entry is genuine.

Fact is that there is nowhere in literature, any verification possible he even could have been awarded the CCC in gold.

Lets just face the fact that all here said about late, imprisoned, not yet verified etc. awardings were made is true, but we must also except the fact that just as many entry's in soldbuch, wehrpass enven awarding documents were done after the war and even were done just to sell items with a higher price.

All other entry's on the soldbuch look very genuine and perhaps he indeed was entitled or had enough days to be awarded, but there is no proof he did and sorry, but to me the entry in the soldbuch is to suspicious to make this a certain awarding.

[Wilco Vermeer]

Fact is that he goes in Homburg in US Prison with his Major and Btl Kommandeur Jebs or Krebs I don´t can read he signed his CCC silver entry and Major Gäde goes too in prison in Homburg

One last addition.
As far as I see the papers, the person was releaved from Wehrmacht duty on 30th April 1945 look at his "entlassungsbescheid" (so eight days after he was supposed to have been awarded the CCC in Gold in POW camp). According to the papers he was in FRENCH imprisonment from 30th April 1945 until 17th May 1945: look at the "Certificat de Liberation". Again eight days after the supposed awarding on 22nd April.

Please someone explain how a man imprisoned on 30th April 1945 by French can be awarded a CCC in gold by entry in a soldbuch on 22nd April 1945 by a man who was already POW on 30th March 1945 with Americans?

The dates just do not match up.

[Wilco Vermeer]

Length of Service Added, might account for the jump from Silver to Gold? I have NKIG Winners Document.

Justin do you have this persons NKiG winners document?????
Please share it with us, this could verify the awarding.

[Wilco Vermeer]

One more fact on awarding to POW's:

The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht stopped the treatment of all proposals for awardings to missing (MIA) soldiers or soldiers captured by the enemy (POWs) from 2nd August 1944 on and thereby any awarding to them was formally blocked. This was done by Order of the OKW. THis means that any awarding of decorations to POW's was illegal from 2nd August 1944. So formally any awarding done to a POW from that date on was not a formal one and so they were formally not awarded.

[Justin P]

To clear any confusion up.....I Don't have this Mans document !.....I do however have Document for NKIG, Which was awarded on 16,4,1945.....Until 2006-Dorrs book update) he was not listed as NKIG Winner. I'm sure there are more winners of this Award out there, that are not officially Recorded as such and failed to receive the DKIG. I would be very happy with this SB shown in this thread.

Justin do you have this persons NKiG winners document?????
Please share it with us, this could verify the awarding.

[Wilco Vermeer]

Thanks,
I found another discripancy.
The entry is supposed to have been signed on 22nd APril 1945 by Gäde as commanding officer of 719. Infanterie-Division. Even if the entry was signed in imprisnomennt, which is hardly possible looking at the dates, a high ranking officer should have known he was not entitled to sign with this definition. He was not anymore the commanding officer of that division on 22nd April 1945. As from April 14th, 1945 the commanding officer was Generalleutnant Willy Seeger.

If Gäde was entitled to sign such a document as POW he should have signed it as Commanding officer of POW's. Even in a POW camp the Germans had a hierarchy with commanding officers.

[dennisb]

I am one of these guys who do not want to call weird entries towards the end of the war to fast fake because during the last months and even sometimes after may 1945 anything was possible.

IMHO, the Nahkampfspange in Silber is totally genuine. - Not that anyone thought that one was fake, but just in case. -
Regarding the Nahkampfspange in Gold, I actually have to agree with Wilco Vermeer that this one is indeed a bit suspicious for the reasons which Wilco has already pointed out.

If the signature which Ian has posted is the original signature of H. Gäde, then the signature for the Nahkampfspange in Gold entry looks a bit to nice. (Sütterlin - 'contemporary writing')

[Lionel H.]

A very desirable CCC in SILBER Group, damaged by a fake "Gold" Entry. Wilco said well what was important to say. Imagining a POW-general attributing such an Award in POW-Camp ist just.... By the Way, if something like that would have been possible, what would have been the Proof used by the General ?? The List with the 50 CC Days was not available....
Missing Stamps on late War entries are common, but the Signature of Gaede is just a very bad Attempt from anybody having Problems with the "Spitzschrift" used during this Period.
Tut mir Leid. Lionel.

[Lee Luke]

For me, it looks legitimate but the arguments against it do have merit.

Thomas is positive that this group was never handled outside of the family. Thomas has been an honest member of this forum and I don't think he is trying to sell an item that is not legitimate.

It is original or the family was not honest with him.