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**FCG** · 06-13-2007, 01:08 PM

It is probably true that these tags have been found at German airfields around Stalingrad (I have been there myself three times and have discussed these tags with trustworthy Russian diggers).

However, as ably explained by Mike P., the idea that these were used as evacuation tickets is totally absurd. It is documented that at least two officers were shot after they were found to have been flown out without authorization -- written authorization was required.

The "pass" story is being used to add value to an otherwise not very interesting relic. It is likely that they were some kind of equipment tag or had some other airfield use.

**32InfDiv** · 06-13-2007, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by FCG View Post

It is likely that they were some kind of equipment tag or had some other airfield use.

Yes, whatever this is, never a pass

Here i show you the pass of my Grandfather. He was in the pocket Frische Nehrung and became there 1945 a shell splinter in the neck. This shell splinter lodged in the body with sweat shirt.

regards
Andreas

**Lee Luke** · 06-13-2007, 05:22 PM

Some good info guys. I didn't pay more than 20 bucks for the stalingrad dug tags (2), before they got expensive, and I paid only $10 for 3 from the man digging in Germany. Whatever they are for, they are still interesting artifacts to add to my erkennungsmarken collection.

**Panzer Rob** · 06-27-2007, 12:48 PM

Doug-

Thank you very much for sharing this information with us.

Rob

Originally posted by Doug Kenwright View Post

There is a man near me who runs a small wood working shop and is a veteran of the 6th army at Stalingrad..in fact, his wife was one of the last civilians with the army to be evacuated by road before the ring closed..(she was a nurse...)

After the Russians had encircled Stalingrad completely, the gentleman was wounded by grenade splinters to the face and hands.He was evacuated to German held territory on one of the few aircraft that made a landing to deliver food and small arms ammunition.The turnaround was under 10 minutes, and was probably one of the last transport aircraft to successfully land intact and take off till the 6th surrendered.

Something like 50-60 transports were shot down before all air operations ceased..no sense in throwing good after bad i suppose.

Now, i asked him this afternoon what the process was for wounded being transferred out..he stated that in typical German fashion all paperwork was filled out, and he was kept lucid to ensure it was correct..he was tagged with a large waxed cardboard tag with the nature of the wounds, name, amount and types of drugs administered (if any) and was duly signed off on by no less than two staff doctors and attached to his second button hole..He was also given his wehrpass, as it was deemed that it would be best if it was carried out by the soldier given the circumstance.

He stated no special tags were issued, or flight papers, nor were there men shot scrambling to escape on the planes..in spite of everything, he said the soldiers maintained quite good discipline and most kept their wits about them...it was only on the plane where the wounds were for the first time felt, and on the over one hour ride it was sheer agony.

The most amazing thing is when he landed, he was treated by the woman who be his wife after the war, though no storybook romance was involved at the time..

This man is a wealth of stories...he is the only man in his platoon to survive the war, and was ony one of twenty one to survive from his regiment of over three hundred men....

**Russ Schulke** · 06-27-2007, 09:19 PM

Luftwaffe cargo loading tags: Stalingrad, Demyansk ... ect

These are Luftwaffe cargo loading tags. Theses were attached, in the case of wood boxes nailed to or wire to the cargo and directed the loader on the weight class and the fragilely of the equipment.

Red square tag - Heavy weight class – not fragile
Yellow square tag - Medium weight class – not fragile
Red round tag - Light weight class - fragile
Yellow round tag - Light weight class – very fragile
Green round tag - Light weight class – extremely fragile

As planes must be loaded so it is balance in flight, it is crucial that the weight of cargo must be distributed in the proper matter; this is reflected in the heavy weight square tag colors or red and yellow. The round shape tags reflect the lightweight class and the start of the fragile sub classification. These items would be packed and shipped in a much different matter that the heavy class. Optics would fit the round green tags category, because they are susceptible to damage such continuous low vibration.

I am presently in the middle of moving from Riverside California to San Jacinto California and cannot tell you exactly what the physical weight classes are until I unpack my research. Which could be months? All of this information was related to me during a contract interview with a German Luftwaffe officer that was involved in the 1942 Demyansk battles.

For the last five years I have repeatedly written the sellers and the buyers of these items what these items are and what they are not.

Remember rule number 1# about collecting: NEVER BUY THE STORY, BUY THE ITEM!

I buy Stalingrad! (Soviet and German)

WEHRPASSES - SOLDBUCHS - PRIVATE / UNPUBLISHED PHOTO ALBUMS - DOCUMENTS - UNIFORMS - DOGTAGS - DEATH NOTICES - BOOKS - AERIAL PHOTOS - MAPS - ARCHIVAL RESEARCH and DRK: Deutsches Rotes Kreuz Suchdienst Vermisstenbildliste. (German Red Cross WWII MIA books)

Presently looking for all DRK books with Stalingrad destroyed units in them. Here are the ones currently on the top of my list. (1.) Sturmgeschütz Abt. 177 (2.) Infantry Regt. 544, 545 & 546 (3) Panzer Regt. 2, 24 & 36.

Also, I am looking to purchase unit histories from the following German and Soviet units that fought during the Stalingrad battle. I am interested in archival research or books that covers the approaches to Stalingrad, the street and factory fighting time-period from late August to November 21, of 1942. (RUSSIAN, GERMAN, OR ENGLISH TEXTS ARE ALL ACCEPTABLE)

SOVIET UNIT HISTORIES - STALINGRAD (August to November of 1942)
35 Gds. Rifle Division: 100 (composite) Gds. Rifle Regt -- 65 Gds. Arty. Regt.
45 Rifle Division: 10, 61, 253 Rifle Regt. - 178 Arty. Regt.
131 Rifle Division: 482 Rifle Regt. (composite)
196 Rifle Division: 863 Rifle Regt. (composite)
244 Rifle Division: 907, 911, 913 Rifle Regt. - 776 Arty. Regt.
285 Rifle Division: 38, 56, 64 Rifle Regt.
300 Rifle Division: 1049, 1051, 1053 Rifle Regt. - 822 Arty. Regt.
315 Rifle Division: 115, 724 Rifle Regt. (composite)
399 Rifle Division: 399, 1345 Rifle Regt.
10 NKVD Division: 269, 270, 271, 272, 273, 282 Workers Militia Regt.

INDEPENDENT BRIGADES
6 Gds. 84, 99, 133, 137 Tank Brigade
115, 124, 149 Rifle Brigade
38 Motorized Rifle Brigade
13 Tank-Destroyer Brigade

INDEPENDENT REGT.
186, 378, 397, 499, 508, 651 Tank-Destroyer Regt.
85, 307, 331, 680, 1003, 1005, 1105 Arty. Regt.
19, 51, 89, 91, 92 Gds. Mortar (Rocket) Regt.
748, 1077, 1078, 1087 Anti-Aircraft Regt.

INDEPENDENT BATTALIONS
48, 50, 155, 188, 308, 416 Machinegun-Arty. Battalions
39, 49, 179, 212 Eng. Battalions
21 Tank Training Battalion
4 Anti-Tank Rifle Battalion
62 Security Battalion

INDEPENDENT COMPANIES AND MISCELLANEOUS
23, 73, 100, 102, 104, 105, 106, 107 Flamethrower Companies
67 Penal Company
51, 59 Armored Trains

GERMAN UNIT HISTORIES - STALINGRAD (August to November of 1942)
177th Sturmgeschütz (Assault Gun) Abteilungen
244th Sturmgeschütz (Assault Gun) Abteilungen
245th Sturmgeschütz (Assault Gun) Abteilungen
305 Infantry Division
389 Infantry Division
9th Flak Division

Russ

<img src="http://www.fireonthevolga.com/CA-STLNGRD-s11.jpg">

<a href="http://www.fireonthevolga.com">http://www.fireonthevolga.com</a>

**Mike P.** · 06-28-2007, 12:26 AM

Russ ...does your research include any period pictures of Crates with these "Tags" attached or , a Luftwaffe Manual showing how and where to attach them and showing an actual chart with the range of weights ?
There's also a Science to loading supplies on Boats ..that involves weight distribution ...did the German Navy also have a similar "Tag" system in place with maybe an Anchor punched through it?
Come to think of it ..how does a Luftwaffe Gull Rank device come to symbolize or represent a Luft Frieght Crate and the Weight "range"?

If you consider how critical the supply of Steel was during the War and the Scrap Metal Drives they had ...I don't think they'd waste a resource on millions of different shaped Steel Tags knowing that once the Shipments go out , those Tags will never be returned & reused (Hermmy wasn't new to Scrap Steel Drives ..ever see the Goering Scrap Metal Drive certificates? I'll post one for you if you like) ...I've seen many WW2 German crates stenciled (ink/paint) with the weight, that's how they did it ---that's a lot cheaper than making a Steel Tag and you get an exact weight with a Stencil, not a "range".

Say they are for real ..and there were millions of them laying around back then ..don't you think the average Soldier would have found a use for them ? Trench Art ? Pendants with a name engraved ? Or , engraving a Battle that they fought in with the date ...we (collectors) would have seen them around and in early collections starting from the late '40's.
Myself , I started collecting in the 60's , use to get EVERY Catalog , list , visit shows ,Auctions, Vet buys ..and I NEVER saw these around back then.
The Luftwaffe flew many Tons of supplies to France,Greece,Norway & the Channel Islands ..how many have turned up there?

To me ..It's a cheap fantasy item with a BS Stalingrad story attached to sell it.

Show me the Luftwaffe Manual & regulations and photos showing them in use ..

Sorry to seem hard headed about this but I'm tired of seeing younger (or newer) Collectors getting ripped off ..many of these newbies are desperate to "believe" the Charlie Shnyder style stories out there in the hopes that they are buying a real ww2 Nazi artifact ..only to find out later that they were conned.
So ..the sales pitch has now gone from "WOUNDED STALINGRAD EVACUATION TAG " to " LUFTWAFFE WEIGHT SHIPMENT TAG" ..I can't wait to see what the next "explanation" they come up to with to sell this junk..How about putting a Number on them and calling them- "GOERING COAT ROOM CHECK TAG"

Red Square --General's Overcoat
Yellow Square --Colonel Overcoat
Red Round --Major
Yellow Round -- Captain & below
Green Round -- Visiting Hookers Fur Coat

**gary42-43** · 06-28-2007, 04:28 AM

Stalingrad disc?

I bought this off ebay 1 or 2 years ago. The description told me that it was an evacuation disc,found at Gumrak airfield, 8 miles west of Stalingrad. Wow, awsome! Not sure i believed half of the tale but i was happy enough to pay around ******163;30.(5 other bidders! I wasn't the only sucker out there.) It's 4cm in diameter. 1" 5/8

Attached Files

tag 001.jpg (115.2 KB, 589 views)

**Lee Luke** · 06-28-2007, 09:10 PM

Like I said in my earlier post, I bought a couple from Russia and Germany. The seller from Germany never mentioned anything about stalingrad. These are real ww2 pieces. What they are for ? We will find out, This forum is full of knowledge Russ's info sheds new ideas, maybe not complete, but on the right track.

**Zeller** · 05-01-2008, 09:20 AM

I would like to revamp this thread. I am very curious about the real use for these tags. It seems they have been found everywhere, also in northern Italy and Germany. One interesting theory is that they were used as trading tags (hence the different colour), inside base. I never saw them not in relic conditions...

**helmke** · 05-01-2008, 10:06 AM

Hi Matt R,

These disks are used by the Luftwaffe crews that loaded the transport planes.
You have these tokens in different colours.
The colour of the token correspondences with a weight and priority class of the load.
I don't have the exact information on which colour was for what load, but I'am sure if you do a little search on this or any other forum that you w'll find it and read a lot of battle of Stalingrad BS along the way.
How the story of Stalingrad started on these I don't know?
Perhaps a dealer told it to a wishful thinking collector and with the help of the internet a new legend was born.

H

**Zeller** · 05-01-2008, 10:23 AM

Thanks Helmke

target hit! I was thinking about that Stalingrad BS. I never drank it. But if you search the net, that's the story that mostly pops up.
Thanks for the useful informations!
Matt

**helmke** · 05-01-2008, 10:26 AM

No worries Matt

H

**Mike P.** · 05-01-2008, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by helmke View Post

Hi Matt R,

These disks are used by the Luftwaffe crews that loaded the transport planes.
I don't have the exact information on which colour was for what load, but I'am sure if you do a little search on this or any other forum that you w'll find it and read a lot of battle of Stalingrad BS along the way.
How the story of Stalingrad started on these I don't know?
Perhaps a dealer told it to a wishful thinking collector and with the help of the internet a new legend was born.

H

Hi Helmke , It sounds like you own one of them ! Well, don't know what to tell ya ..This thread was started a year ago and not one shred of proof has come to light backing up this new story about them being "Cargo" tags ..No Regulations found, No pictures of them in Use ..nothing. There are way too many holes in this story for me to believe it.
Maybe a Chucky Schnieder type started this story since his "Stalingrad" story wasn't working any more..or better yet , maybe we should just accept that these were never made during the War
Please post the proof so we can put this to bed once and for all.

**helmke** · 05-01-2008, 10:51 AM

Hello Mike,

Such items aren't in my collection.
They sure aren't Stalingrad related that is fact.
Can I proof that they are not used in the Stalingrad airlifts?
No and I don't care.
Can I proof that they are loading tags?
No and once again I don't care.
Can you proof that they are post war made?
Most likely not and why should you care?

What I do know is that sometime ago, a year ago or longer, I read somewhere that there was a regulation that these were used as aircargo tokens.
It did sound plausible and a much better explaination then that Stalingrad BS.

I don't care about these tokens, for what I care they could be used by aliens that landed in Texas in 1969.

H

**Mike P.** · 05-01-2008, 11:56 AM

Hi H ...It might sound strange but , I get upset at these "fantasy" stories and items that keep popping up because more than once I've seen young collectors get ripped off at shows buying these stories --and items.
So please , it's nothing against you or anyone else ..it's the "story" I'm against and , given the track record we have with these "diggers" ..I wouldn't believe anything they had to offer. They are driven by profit not History.
I've collected for about 45 years now ..very broad spectrum including Ordnance/Ammo ..so , I've dealt with many styles of Wooden Crates and never seen or found one of these tags attached. I also collect manuals and all sorts of TR (pre 45) Books ...No mention in any of the orig Luft Manuals or even in Angolias 3 vol set. Hours of orig Newsreels ..nothing. No record , no explanation ..no proof.
And yet ...people buy them because somewhere they heard that someplace someone knew a guy who dug them up.
I was talking to a European Dealer at the last Max and he told me that the Fakers love dealing with Americans because of how "gullible" we are --romantics more than willing to buy the story.
So , they are more than happy to come up with new items for us to collect ...
I don't enjoy seeing us laughed at or new collectors being taken advantage of.
That's why I'd rather see an item like this either researched and documentation submitted proving it's real or ...recognized as a fake and the story squashed before it gains momentum.
Here's the example I was discussing with that dealer ...I remember people defending these when they first came out as well --
BTW , they also came in different Colors ..fakers seem to like doing that, remember the HJ pins that came out a few years ago in a wide selection of colors.
Confuse them , and make a sale ..

Attached Files

Fake1.jpg (9.7 KB, 500 views)

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