Stalingrad pass

[helmke]

Hi Mike,

The stories surrounding these tags is indeed crazy.
I'll try to bust my brain to try to remember were I read the cargotag explaination.

Similar it is with concentrationcamp money tokens.
They sure did exist and there was a time that they were extreemly rare and now you see them everywhere.

For all collectors that read this thread:
- Don't buy the story, but buy the item.
& if you buy an item that has a story attached then make sure that it is a story that can be proven to be true with real evidence (reference books, archives,...etc).

H

[Mike P.]

H -- I couldn't agree with you more !

I just started "snoopin" around and found an interesting Article --
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...554485790.html

Now These diggers I'd trust because , they are NOT in it for profit , no agenda..they have a job to do and are probably being watched to make sure there's no theft involved. I'd love to see some pictures documenting what relics they've found ..that I'd believe.

[Zeller]

The reason why I revamped this thread is simple: since recently I got the confirmation that these tags actually existed (one was found here from a guy who is not a seller - here in Italy, not in eastern europe or russia -and I have no reasons to doubt his word) and I don't believe the Stalingrad story, there should be another explanation for them and I hoped that maybe someone knew about it. Period. Indeed there are plenty of fake stuff sold as relics on ebay or directly to unaware collectors (not only americans!) but in this case maybe they're just making up a story to increase the value on an original,probably insignificant, tag. Just my 2 cents

[Mike P.]

I understand Matt but it's things like this that frustrate new collectors and actually drive them out of the Hobby ...they don't know who to believe and don't know what to trust or what's safe to buy. This is not the first time Cheap fantasy Tags have been made. Back in the 80's there was a "rash" of "Casino" and "Brot" & other tokens showing up supposedly from the Channel Islands ..a couple collectors I spoke with over there said they never existed. I even ended up with a handful of them when I bought out a Collection back then (think I still have 'em somewhere).
Look at the larger picture and Track Record the fakers have so you can get a "feel" for how they think and work. Here's the Thread showing the Channel Island fakes ..one gent says they were from California (who knows) http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...lands%22+token

No one can show me an old Thread regarding these "Tokens" from the early days of our Forums ...I have a stack of DG's from years ago , not one mention of one ever being found. I'm a Greek --never heard of one showing up over there.
I'm not saying your friend is a liar here ..I am however saying that just on this thread alone a year has passed and that gave these Tags one year to "Migrate" anywhere in the world to a new Market..and a better chance to be sold.
So ..I bet they are now showing up in Italy.
I don't think we'll ever be seeing them on Detlev or Hermann Historica's listings though ..unless an original Book with the regulations is found proving they existed

[Zeller]

Mike, I agree with you.
I also have the metal detecting hobby,although over here there is not much to dig but rocks, I am more than skeptical with some finds seen here or elsewhere. You can read my comments on other threads. I am not a "believer".
Until few days ago I was sure that these tags were a fake and we discussed about it also on a local forum, but then a guy came up with a tag he dug here. He didn't buy it or want to sell it. The tag looks very similar to those we have all seen as offered as Stalingrad passes, but it was found in an ex LW field base.
I didn't find it myself so I cannot put my hand on fire (you know Muzio Scevola from ancient Rome...) but I don't see flaws in this italian guy story.
I'm still confident that at least one forum member knows anything about these tags and clear this dilemma.

Then we can pass to next stage : those expensive spent cases marked with SS TV markings popping out everywhere now and sold for big $$ and a curious SA whistle too ... For such items you really have to convince me that they are good

[Mike P.]

Guys ..I tried to approach this using common sense and , researching the topic away from our Forums (didn't want a slanted opinion) . Another thing we're forgetting is that the Luftwaffe was pretty much kept intact (structure wise --some insignia had to change though ) post war so , if these WERE a standard method used by them during the whole War ..they'd have continued using the same system post war --that would mean there'd be MILLIONS of these.
I think the Goering Coat Room Tag sounds more interesting myself.

These guys will not stop coming up with new inventory because of the money involved . What's sad is how I've seen some fakes from the 60's now accepted as REAL --by Collectors who were Born in the 70's and didn't know what was in Delta International & WW2 Ltd's Catalogs back then.
Some Collectors say .." Well , How do you Know ?"
because I was collecting back then, bought way too many Footlockers and boxes and dufflebags directly from the Veterans and saw what they brought home..went to the shows back then, got to know what was "around" . We're not talking about a DKiG with Diamonds here ..if there were that many of these tags made and used in ALL Theaters during the War ..they would have shown up years and years ago.
One question ...Did either the Political or Military of Nazi Germany ever produce any Token or Coin or anything using any Rank Insignia ( A Gull , Pip, Chevron ) as a symbol to be used for an official purpose other than Rank?

Nope

case closed

Hey Matt ..I'm interested in that Whistle , was the name "Blondi" engraved on it ? ...you know who owned that right ?

[Mike P.]

Then we can pass to next stage : those expensive spent cases marked with SS TV markings popping out everywhere now and sold for big $$ and a curious SA whistle too ... For such items you really have to convince me that they are good

Oh yes ..good point ! Like I said , these guys are creative .
Here's another new POS Junk pin I just saw sell for $200
Oy , vat a deal !
(I can say that since I'm in NY, it's ok)

[Mike P.]

another winner --

But my Uncle's Aunt (on my Fathers side) knew a guy who's 3d cousin took this pin off Himmler before they captured him in Berlin .

[Zeller]

the guy who made the cast must have been a "Scary movie" fan ...

regarding the whistle, i'll send you a pm

[helmke]

Mike P is right, their is to much crap and silly fake merchandize for sale in this hobby.
But if only (future) collectors wouldn't be so naive with buying this kind of crap the fakers wouldn't have it that easy.

H

[Gaspare]

Hi Mike,,, you post # 37... That was a proposed pin.. There was at least one excellent line drawing of it in a period newspaper mentioning that it would soon be available for sale!!
,,someone sharp saw the ad and bam,,instant super rare SS pin...

These Luft. tags very well could be authentic,,,problem is,,they are just a steel square with the 'gull' stamped out. There's not a collector alive that could tell the difference between the fake and the real[?].....

[Mike P.]

Hi G ...What changed your mind into thinking these could be real ? Last year (Post #8 of this Thread) you said --

"Mike, I think you hit the nail right on the head!
There would had to be surviving documentation on them. Issue docs, maybe soldbuch entry, regulation of useage, distribution regs, something!"

I just went back through the whole Thread and quickly counted how many negative points I made as to why I believe they are fake --I counted 12.

The number of Positive Points members made proving they are real -- 0
Score --
Fake -12 <> Real - 0
I don't understand why no one has even tried to address any of the 12 questions/observations & points I've raised ..instead , all they can offer is .." well , they could be real "

The fakers do their homework sometimes and come up with stuff that MIGHT be explainable , or at least makes it more sellable. Take the Stalingrad Shield for example . That was said to have been on the drawing board , never on the production line . If it wasn't produced ..it's a fantasy item .
Here's one you'll like ...Years ago I remember seeing a ring that had a tiny Compass mounted on it ..it had Swastikas on the sides and it was RZM'd !!! The guy told me it was for Nazi Paratroopers .
It was split so you could bend it open so one size fit all ..that was at a Gun Show in Pomona and I've never seen another since.
(and don't want to)

[Gaspare]

Mike, I really don't like them.. But out of politeness to the guys that swear they've dug them themselves [or similar situation] I give the benefit of the doubt..

Over on the German forum so many times myself and others that used to collect ID tags, now see SS ID tags that were made in the early 1990's come up again with the owner swearing he dug it, or was there while it came up from the ground that its no longer worth arguing about anymore..
Hey, no worries,,eventually, in the years to come ALL this questionable stuff will become 'original'.. .......

[Mike P.]

"<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 2611007" vAlign=top><TD class=alt2>eventually, in the years to come ALL this questionable stuff will become 'original'.. .......</TD></TR><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2>Today 12:09 AM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Now THAT's a fact !! ..and that's what scares me .
Thanks G

[Zeller]

I had the permission from the italian collector who actually found one of these tags in northern Italy (Belluno area). Here it is:



Personally, now I strongly believe that these tags are original, but with a common use.
regards Matt