The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[robert60446]

However, one thing is clear, ALL thoses crosses are original S&L, just like the alledged 900-21 made by Frau Klietmann are original Godet pieces (=dies). So, how would one treat such a piece? It's definetely NOT a fake!

Dietrich

They are not original WWII items! There is no question about it in my mind. Everything made after May 1945 is not original WWII collectible! Dietrich, as far as your statement: “It's definitely NOT a fake!” I have to disagree with you. Here is definition of the word “fake”: not genuine or real; being an imitation of the genuine article. These RK’s are nothing more then perfect imitations of the genuine article…I’m sorry, but originals were made only during WWII…

[Peter J.]

That would make an EK 1class 1914 produced 1930 a fake

KR
Peter

[Bob Hritz]

Robert,

I have to agree with you. If it was made or assembled after May 8, 1945, it is a fake. Collectors like to use the words "restrikes' but fake is fake.

I am of the ABSOLUTE school. Dealth, pregnancy and originality are absolutes. It is IS or it ISN'T original pre May 8, 1945.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Peter,


A 1914 Iron Cross made in 1930 is not an original WWI award. You are comparing apples with oranges and replacements are still fakes, if made after the original period of manufacture. It is the same as a US Civil War campaign medal. Send in great-great-great grandpappy's authorization and the US Government will send you a replacement Civil War Campaign medal. Is it original? NO it is a fake made to REPLACE the original. Just because there is a contract to produce replacements, that does not mean the replacement is original. An original Civil War campaign medal, made and issued following the war is very valuable. The current issue, for replacements is valued at about $15.00 retail and $8 wholesale.

Fakes were worn and used and they can be collectible, in their own right. Sometimes the fake is more valuable than the original, to a collector.

Bob Hritz

[robert60446]

That would make an EK 1class 1914 produced 1930 a fake

KR
Peter

You are missing the point. It is a fake if you are collecting original WWI items!

[Luftm40]

If there are in fact 2 die types, the issue then becomes sorting out which type Bs are wartime and which were assembled/struck post war. There may never be a way to definitively say which is which. I'm fairly certain that some postwar SLs were made from all original left over components. These components may very well have been stamped and maker marked during the war (look at the L/11 57 EK1s). I think the answer may lay in the beading finish. I have always been suspicious of the "painted" beading. This seems like something that would have been done as a postwar expedient. Very telling, I think, is the 935/4 RK owned by Jody Beltram. I have the pics somewhere, but as I remember it is a type B WITH the "pickled" beading finish. Perhaps Jody can post pics for us and confirm this fact?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andy,

to have a 935-4 with 'real' frosting would be really something! But don't forget, the later flawed A-Type also has the 'painted' frosting, and they have provenance.

And regarding which was done when: At least one can say that those wirth swastika and flaws are made later then 1957 since you have 57's w/o flaws and both are B-Type. The one examined example (unmarked and zinc core) was for sure made way after 1957!

Dietrich

[WARLORD]

I have to say, in the case of Great Britain, soldiers were in many cases informed they had to apply for there medals after the end of the War. Many did not, so now are applying for the award of there medals. These are being currently produced by the Royal mint. There birthday is some 45-60 years after the award perriod. These are not fakes, but original awards. As to 1914 Iron cross made in 1939 THESE ARE JUST AS LIGTERMATE as the period award. These are just another period of official production.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

could you please post this part in a readable form. Seems very interesting!

Dietrich

[Peter J.]

Robert and Bob.

I fully respect your opinion on absolutes as much as the opinion of other's i.e. the collectors who are willing to pay more for a vaulted EK1 1914 produced 1930, than an original issued 1914 produced.

I still think Dietrich has point here. If the components to a KC was produced before 8 May 1945 and then assembled after that date, it was still produced in wartime. If on the other hand the parts were produced after 1945, even with original dies, I would definately agree with you 100%. As for apples and pears, Civil War Medals are restrikes as well as the 1930 EK:s and doesn't really fall in the same catagory as pre-45 manufactured parts. Just my two cents

KR
Peter

[robert60446]

There birthday is some 45-60 years after the award perriod. These are not fakes, but original awards. As to 1914 Iron cross made in 1939 THESE ARE JUST AS LIGTERMATE as the period award. These are just another period of official production.

One more time: Any item made after May 1945 is not an original WWII item! Any item made after 1918 is not an original WWI item! These 1914 EK’s could be made by Adolf Hitler himself, but they are not original WWI crosses if made after 1918…I’m sorry…<o =""></o>

[WARLORD]

I think you have missed the point. After WWI many soldiers had not been awarded their Iron cross, thus there was a need to have ones made. These are not 1914-1918 period cross's but they are lagitermate awards of the period. The case of 1945 is that the further award or wearing of Nazi awards was prohibited. Hense new designs were produced in 1957. I state again British service men are being awarded medal some 50 years after the event. In the case of K.I.A the next of kin are having the awards from the Government, because they were not given them at the time. These awards are being produced to-day. These are not fake.

[George Stimson]

This thread is getting a little off-topic with the discussion of "fake" vs. "not fake." Maybe a thread on this subject ("Fake or not?") could be started in the "Collector Community" Forum where more hobbyists could contribute their thoughts on the subject.

[Luftm40]

Here is a question for the EK collectors: Do late war (probably 4 marked) SL EK1s and 2s exist w/ the painted beading? If this expedient was taken during the war w/ the RK, one would think that it was used on the lesser awards as well.

[robert60446]

I think you have missed the point. After WWI many soldiers had not been awarded their Iron cross, thus there was a need to have ones made. These are not 1914-1918 period cross's but they are lagitermate awards of the period. The case of 1945 is that the further award or wearing of Nazi awards was prohibited. Hense new designs were produced in 1957. I state again British service men are being awarded medal some 50 years after the event. In the case of K.I.A the next of kin are having the awards from the Government, because they were not given them at the time. These awards are being produced to-day. These are not fake.

My dear friend,<o =""></o>

If you prefer to have in your collection awards made in 2005 instead of 1939 then that’s ok with me…as long as you are happy with it! But I would like to have 1939 versions only in my collection…<o =""></o>