Originally posted by Dietrich
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The Two S&L Dies for RK's
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Robert,
I have to agree with you. If it was made or assembled after May 8, 1945, it is a fake. Collectors like to use the words "restrikes' but fake is fake.
I am of the ABSOLUTE school. Dealth, pregnancy and originality are absolutes. It is IS or it ISN'T original pre May 8, 1945.
Bob HritzLast edited by Bob Hritz; 04-28-2005, 12:16 PM.In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
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Peter,
A 1914 Iron Cross made in 1930 is not an original WWI award. You are comparing apples with oranges and replacements are still fakes, if made after the original period of manufacture. It is the same as a US Civil War campaign medal. Send in great-great-great grandpappy's authorization and the US Government will send you a replacement Civil War Campaign medal. Is it original? NO it is a fake made to REPLACE the original. Just because there is a contract to produce replacements, that does not mean the replacement is original. An original Civil War campaign medal, made and issued following the war is very valuable. The current issue, for replacements is valued at about $15.00 retail and $8 wholesale.
Fakes were worn and used and they can be collectible, in their own right. Sometimes the fake is more valuable than the original, to a collector.
Bob HritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
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If there are in fact 2 die types, the issue then becomes sorting out which type Bs are wartime and which were assembled/struck post war. There may never be a way to definitively say which is which. I'm fairly certain that some postwar SLs were made from all original left over components. These components may very well have been stamped and maker marked during the war (look at the L/11 57 EK1s). I think the answer may lay in the beading finish. I have always been suspicious of the "painted" beading. This seems like something that would have been done as a postwar expedient. Very telling, I think, is the 935/4 RK owned by Jody Beltram. I have the pics somewhere, but as I remember it is a type B WITH the "pickled" beading finish. Perhaps Jody can post pics for us and confirm this fact?
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Andy,
to have a 935-4 with 'real' frosting would be really something! But don't forget, the later flawed A-Type also has the 'painted' frosting, and they have provenance.
And regarding which was done when: At least one can say that those wirth swastika and flaws are made later then 1957 since you have 57's w/o flaws and both are B-Type. The one examined example (unmarked and zinc core) was for sure made way after 1957!
Dietrich
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I have to say, in the case of Great Britain, soldiers were in many cases informed they had to apply for there medals after the end of the War. Many did not, so now are applying for the award of there medals. These are being currently produced by the Royal mint. There birthday is some 45-60 years after the award perriod. These are not fakes, but original awards. As to 1914 Iron cross made in 1939 THESE ARE JUST AS LIGTERMATE as the period award. These are just another period of official production.
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Robert and Bob.
I fully respect your opinion on absolutes as much as the opinion of other's i.e. the collectors who are willing to pay more for a vaulted EK1 1914 produced 1930, than an original issued 1914 produced.
I still think Dietrich has point here. If the components to a KC was produced before 8 May 1945 and then assembled after that date, it was still produced in wartime. If on the other hand the parts were produced after 1945, even with original dies, I would definately agree with you 100%. As for apples and pears, Civil War Medals are restrikes as well as the 1930 EK:s and doesn't really fall in the same catagory as pre-45 manufactured parts. Just my two cents
KR
Peter
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Originally posted by WARLORDThere birthday is some 45-60 years after the award perriod. These are not fakes, but original awards. As to 1914 Iron cross made in 1939 THESE ARE JUST AS LIGTERMATE as the period award. These are just another period of official production.
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I think you have missed the point. After WWI many soldiers had not been awarded their Iron cross, thus there was a need to have ones made. These are not 1914-1918 period cross's but they are lagitermate awards of the period. The case of 1945 is that the further award or wearing of Nazi awards was prohibited. Hense new designs were produced in 1957. I state again British service men are being awarded medal some 50 years after the event. In the case of K.I.A the next of kin are having the awards from the Government, because they were not given them at the time. These awards are being produced to-day. These are not fake.
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Originally posted by WARLORDI think you have missed the point. After WWI many soldiers had not been awarded their Iron cross, thus there was a need to have ones made. These are not 1914-1918 period cross's but they are lagitermate awards of the period. The case of 1945 is that the further award or wearing of Nazi awards was prohibited. Hense new designs were produced in 1957. I state again British service men are being awarded medal some 50 years after the event. In the case of K.I.A the next of kin are having the awards from the Government, because they were not given them at the time. These awards are being produced to-day. These are not fake.
If you prefer to have in your collection awards made in 2005 instead of 1939 then that’s ok with me…as long as you are happy with it! But I would like to have 1939 versions only in my collection…<o =""></o>
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