The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[Dietrich Maerz]

Mike,

this is very interesting what you brought forward. The "casting' duplication would explain the transfer of the minute details and would also go along with the fact that the B-Type rims are slightly smaller than the A-Type rims.
It is clear in my mind at least that some kind of replication process must have been in place anyway since the typical dies features of S&L were copied in such a way that it did 'fool' the community up to today.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

There were so many still 'hanging around' in the late 40's and early 50's and tied in to an open market that there wouldn't be a need to reproduce them until much later!!!

The article says "S&L made this cross for this vet"??? In the early fifties original RKs were going for how much???

[Rich G]

I take my hat off to you Dietrich. Superb work!


Rich

[Sebastian Bianchi]

There were so many still 'hanging around' in the late 40's and early 50's and tied in to an open market that there wouldn't be a need to reproduce them until much later!!!

While that picture is impressive and offers some shock value (god! They were making them in 1953!) all that proves is someone GOT it in 1953. I could take my original and take the same photo today.

[Rich G]

While that picture is impressive and offers some shock value (god! They were making them in 1953!) all that proves is someone GOT it in 1953. I could take my original and take the same photo today.

Exactly!

[George Stimson]

What does the article say?

[Sebastian Bianchi]

What does the article say?

Yes.... what does it say? Good question.

[Marc Garlasco]

Richard,

I am at the office. I will scan the S&L at home and post it.

Marc

[Dave Kane]

It surely isn't for shock value!! I've shown this article before and it's merely about the "OPEN" sale of awards in Germany so many years after the war!
It DOES NOT address the manufacture or continuing production, only that the stock at hand in tailor and uniform stores was being sold in the open market.

I can guess that there was a big push to get rid of this stock with 1957 fast approaching!

A none solid silver Knight's Cross was 21DM without ribbon while a solid silver example w/out ribbon was 32DM.

In the same article it suggests that Galland's brother had purchased for 3200dm a set of Oakleave/Swords & Diamonds for the General while he was coolong his heels in Argentina!

As an aside the pre '41 prices for the Knight's Crosses (non and solid silver) were 14.50RM and 24RM.

[Tiger 1]

First, a big congratulations to Dietrich for his Herculean effort in this compelling study of the Knight's Cross. I was fortunate enough to read it before publication. Thanks Dietrich, I'm still chewing on all that data. Great work!

I also have questions about the picture that Dave shows.

The magazine is dated 1953. It purportedly shows a KC being 'awarded' by a civilian to a civilian.

Do we know for sure that the KC being 'awarded' is a left over off the shelf item?

I ask this because the manufacture and display of swastika bearing items were outlawed by the allied occupying forces. With the huge and forceful de-nazification programs instituted by the occupying forces, the manufacture and blatant display of the banned swastika would have been very foolhardy to most Germans at that time say the least. I would suggest that after 7 or 8 years of occupation, about the time this magazine cover came out, that any large 'stocks' of unissued KCs would have long been dissapated. Either confiscated by the allies early on, or eventually sold to the troops stationed in Germany as souveniers. Granted some examples may have remained but most would be gone to the four winds so to speak.......

Just wondering out loud.

Tony

[Bob Hritz]

The use of a casting to make a second die is not correct. I am unaware of any steel alloy that could be cast and have the strength to withstand the force of a die press. Casting is the cheapest way of fabrication and more often than not, leaves flaws in the product (ie; the die). The steel used is rolled through heavy rollers to produce as flawless block material as possible. Cast material has random molecular structure. A heated stock that is passed through pressure rollers stabilizes molecular structure and produces more alligned molecules, producing stronger material more capable of being tempered/hardened.

My hypothesys is that a cracked die can be fitted into a die sleeve, which is another block, cut to tightly fit the EXACT outer measurements of the original, cracked die. This forces the cracks in the original housed die closed. Now, if the pressman doesn't adjust the travel of the press correctly, on a set of dies, the dies break or develop cracks. It is not impossible that the original die, placed into a die sleeve block, could develop a new series of cracks which may or may not correspond to the original set of die cracks. If the pressman under-sets the travel, a weak or incomplete product is the result.

As for debris finding it's way into die blocks, that is very common. Die blocks are lugricated so the extraction of the finished stamping is easily removed. Dirt, oil, and tiny debris can contaminate a die, but they leave impressions INTO the stamped product, not add to it. Even if a sliver of silver would contaminate a die, that piece would be bonded to the frame and would be a blob. That blob may or may not be removeable, but it would be in the reverse of the flaws found on St&L frames, Dietrich is correct that contamination of the dies with debris could not account for the die flaws. They can only correspond to a crack in the die.

Why is the crack on the beaded/ridged edges? This is simple. The deepest part of a die is the weakest, where there is less steel between the die press and top of the die. Science proves that the weakest part of any surface is the most prone to breakage.

The most logical conclusion I can come to is the master die. This is a positive image of the frame from which the production dies are made.This master die is pressed into the annealed (softened) die material. The production die material is cleaned, polished, and then hardened/tempered to accept the pressure of the press. The master die is commonly used today, as it was in the past. A good example is the US Medal of Honor master die. I believe it is still in the Smithsonian and was used to make the production die for the Civil War era Medal of Honor. Even with a perfect master die, the MOH was flawed! This is because the first press of the master into the annealed production die was not clear enough and they made a second pressing into the same production die. A tiny misallignment casued some of the stars, in the pattern, to be double struck creating a flawed double edge. The flaw was so minute, only collectors had noticed or cared.

I commend Dietrich on his research and only offer my own knowledge of die making and forming. I can add nothing to the time line, other than to look through my St&L Knight's Crosses and see if I can lend any information to Dietrich's findings. I have no personal knowledge of the existance of dies, in the post war era, and just have heard rumors for years. I have not had the fortune (or misfortune) to closely examine what is referred to as the post war era St&L Knight's Cross.

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is the article. It basically says that 99 different orders and medals are for sale. One also can have the RK in "it's simplest form" or the "real one one with silver frame". Also, the prices are mentioned and - this is interesting - one gets a price break if ordering 20 RK's (or 30, tough to read) at a crack (en gros)
I doubt that this guy had those 99 different types on stock and had enough of each to offer discounts for buying 20 at a time....RK's that is....

Dietrich

[Marc Garlasco]

Dietrich,

Very nice. Please put in an order for me next time you vsit Germany...

Marc

[Bob Hritz]

Dietrich,

Per Herr Umlauff, Director of Rudolf Souval at the time, there was production of 3rd Reich awards, to include the Knight's Cross within a year after the war's end. Even though Vienna was occupied by the Russians, Souval continued production and made awards available to former receipients as well as souvenir buyers. I corresponded with Herr and Frau Umlauff in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Alas, both had passed away by the time I got to visit the showroom in Vienna. Now they make festival pins, company logo pins and awards and sporting pins and awards. There are no remaining dies in the firm of Rudolf Souval. All were sold to a concern formerly in East Germany.

Well known dealer, Ken Lane, was a US soldier who remained in Vienna, after the war and sold German items, original as well as restruck and completely fake. Ken put out catalogues and advertised in the Shotgun News as well as some of the men's magazines, like Saga. His catalogues are interesting and full of humor (Ken hated the nazi idelology, but did not mind profiting from it!) as well as a valuable resource in identifying the older copies.

Souval Director Herr Unlauff was very vague on the Knight's Cross issue. He always explained that Souval produced the Knight's Cross for private purchase to receipients, but I could not pin him down on if they had dies and production prior to the end of WWII. Of course, they were also for sale to collectors and dealers, after the war.

I would suspect that these 'replacement medals and awards' may well have come from Firma Souval.

Bob Hritz

[Dave Kane]

This might be better!