The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[Dave Kane]

3

[Dave Kane]

This one....It has a silly repo 65 marked loop but it's far from a K&Q.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I will ask the guy for better pictures. But if it has the flaw row, then we have 3 dies? Two with the flaw row and one without?

Dietrich

[Brian S]

I will ask the guy for better pictures. But if it has the flaw row, then we have 3 dies? Two with the flaw row and one without?

Dietrich

Three dies... Hmmm. I suppose a third die for '57's only.

This still all bothers me, it was always Gordon's comment that within a day a single die could have pressed out an entire production life of cross pieces to fulfill their needs. Two dies, three??? I really have a problem with this economically and realistically.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Brian,

I don't think that the issue is a question whether I, you or anybody else has a problem with 2 or three or how many dies and whether that was or is economical.

The problem lies more in the multitude of S&L models with different flaw patterns and production time lines. Do you honestly think I would come up with my conclusion as presented if I could reconcile the findings with one die? You know that I fought like crazy with Pieter about this issue and I was completely wrong.

But again, if somebody has a problem with this theory, that is perfectly fine with me. I just brought forward how I see it and how I back up my findings.
For me it is absolutely logic, conclusive and one can reconcile all the other previous discussions withou any strange explanations in physics.

Dietrich

[Marc Garlasco]

Dietrich,

I for one think it is great that you are doing some original research. The debate is awesome. It is the only way we will understand the hobby better.
Marc

[Erickn]

800 4

Hi Dietrich,


With all due respect, where does the 800 4 fit in?

Best regards,
Erickn

[Skipper Greenwade]

Brian,


Do you honestly think I would come up with my conclusion as presented if I could reconcile the findings with one die? You know that I fought like crazy with Pieter about this issue and I was completely wrong.

Dietrich

Dietrich,

I'll say publicly what I told you when I saw your preliminary report - Outstanding bit of research! I applaud your diligence and academic approach to the die flaw question, but I respect more the fact that you set out to prove your side of the argument, discovered that it wasn't supported by your research and still forged ahead, putting the greater interest of the collecting community ahead of your original beliefs.

Once again, nice work and a fascinating revelation!

Skip

[Ron Weinand]

The Germans Postwar

I really can't add to much to this discussion, but wanted to impart what I know from dealing with an elderly German veteran from the Chicago area who sold me three very nice Knight's Crosses (swastika style) that I believe were S & Ls that were purchased by him from Germany in the EARLY 1950s with ORIGINAL ribbons from the company at that time.
So, like it or not, someone WAS producing swastika KCs post war that were close to the originals. They were 800 marked and were silver. At the time (late 1990s) I didn't know enough to take photos of the flaws that might have been valuable to this discussion, but did weigh them and they were all with one gram of original weight, but were lighter (as a pharmacist I did have the proper scales and weights).
With this said, my conclusion is that SOME were manufactured post war with either leftover parts or leftover dies and construction.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: I sold them as is for what they were and told the buyer the story and DID NOT PASS THEM AS PERIOD. What they did with them is past me. I separated the ribbons and sold them as what they were original old stock.

[Dave Kane]

There were so many still 'hanging around' in the late 40's and early 50's and tied in to an open market that there wouldn't be a need to reproduce them until much later!!!

[Dave Kane]

1

[TMurray]

has anyone undertaken a detailed metalurgical analysis of the materials from which the frames are manufactured? perhaps there are slight differences in the composition of the base elements which lead to the different flaw patterns of A versus B when subjected to the pressure of the die??? perhaps one pattern has a greater 'hardness' that the other to withstand the stamping and thus does not show all the same flaw characteristics of a 'softer' frame? I dunno, probably confuses the matter even more.

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Dietrich, really great job on your article - some great detailed research. Seriously, well done

Some additional info;

My early 57er heavily flawed S&L has the 'B' type "elbow" flaw but on the lower 3 o'clock arm flaw (the row of indents), there are 10 indents easily detected with a 10x hand lense (as opposed to only 8 on the cross you examined - probably just means my example is slightly earlier in this respect). I think this indent flaw was discussed before and I sugested it may have been a bad SCRATCH/SCORE on the die.

I have an earlier 2nd/later/current type S&L 57er. Interestingly, this example has 3 or 4 poorly defined indents corresponding to the lower 3 o'clock arm flaw found on Type 'B'. The beading patterns of both early (Type 'B') and late type of S&L 57ers (lets call them Type 'C' for now) are very similar, however the DETAIL of the later 57er beading is nowhere near that of the earlier 57er beading. Note that the Type 'C' has no beading or elbow flaws.

This may not be directly relevant to your article, however after my latter observation I had a thought in relation to the minute simalarities and differences that have been discussed here, and in particular the master/mother-daughter die theory. Based on some of the beading flaws (here I'm actually thinking of the 'A' and 'B' elbow "flaws" and differences in 3 o'clock beading flaws on the two types - I've added an IMAGE showing that below) I'd agree that maybe two dies are involved (previously I've been a "one-die" person).

To date, I've seen very little evidence for the coin/minting mother-daughter die relationship for most Third Reich badges/crosses/medals. Some items imo did use a definite mother-daughter coin/minting die relationship (solid wound badges, & ostfront medals).

So, I'm wondering/speculating if S&L may have used some sort of DIE-CASTING technique instead of a mother-daughter technique. Let's be VERY clear here, I'm NOT talking about casting frames/core components, I mean making a second set of dies using a casting process - ie making a set of Type 'B' dies directly (exact process unknown) from the deteriorated Type 'A' dies.

Keep in mind that the beading flaws observed on the pressed frames would ONLY have been induced during the HIGH pressure stamping process - making a cast of the die would not reproduce these beading flaws as, when not under pressure, the die cracks would not be open. The method would also explain similar die CHARACTERISTICS but different die FLAWS. Different finishing of the cast/second set of dies may explain any minor differences (just as refinihsing of a new daughter die would explain minor differences using that theory). It would also explain why the Type 'B' beading characteristics AND lower 3 o'clock arm indent flaw are observed on (earlier) Type 'C' (current) 57ers.

One way to possibly check for this die-casting process would be to measure "internal" points (not the "external" width/height of the frames) and look for Type 'B' measurements being slightly smaller than Type 'A' measurements. For example, the distance between the INNER edges of the beading or the distance between STEP adjacent to the outer beading.

Food for though or pure BS - your call.

Regards
Mike K

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi Dietrich,
With all due respect, where does the 800 4 fit in?
Best regards,
Erickn

Erickn,

the 800-4 is a B-Type and would therefore be parallel or later to the 935-4, as I showed in the time line in the article. The important thing here would be to find a 800-4 with dead solid provenance.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

There were so many still 'hanging around' in the late 40's and early 50's and tied in to an open market that there wouldn't be a need to reproduce them until much later!!!

Dave,

the possibility that all of the RK-producing companies had still assembled and/or unassembled crosses in house on 8th May 1945 is very high. Do you think all of thoses companies destroyed their stock at that date? Going with my theory S&L's last run was the 935-4 and they had those on stock. Who's to say the same did not happen with K&Q?

Fact is however, that S&L did produce (i.e. used the die) after the war with the B-Type, both swastika and oakleaves, as your magazine witnesses, Ron describes and Gordon heard from his friend. And they did produce several types on this die: 935-4, 800-4, incuse 800-4, unmarked & unmagnetic, ..
Where those all on stock in May 45? I doubt that!

However, one thing is clear, ALL thoses crosses are original S&L, just like the alledged 900-21 made by Frau Klietmann are original Godet pieces (=dies). So, how would one treat such a piece? It's definetely NOT a fake!

Dietrich