Rounder RK

[Blitz]

Well, it looks as if photo evidence issue isn't going anywhere, since there is no solid evidence available. I see that wear has come into view again. I agree that consistant wear throughout a piece does make sence and in comparison wear on just a single feature looks fishy. But you shouldn't put too much focus on it. 60 years have passed and alot can happen to an RK during that time. If anything, I'd use it in combination with other factors.

I find Mike's observation about the position of the swastika interesting, yet nobody has commented on it. After looking at the pics, i saw it too. It's quite clear even in small photos..

[Harry]

I agree, wear is unreliable -we have seen pristine known originals, and 'worn' known fakes. A well worn cross does not, in itself, make it original. However, inconsistent wear should ring the alarm bells. So, wear is not the litmus test, photographic evidence is questionable, provenance can be unreliable, where does that leave us? As I said before, we should consider the whole picture - take a look at the cases these rounders appear in, and the ribbons they come with, and what about the suspension loops, are they always the same. If I was offered a rounder, which I am open minded about, but which has an 'iffy' case, and a repro ribbon, then I would run. True, a rounder can be matched with an original case and ribbon, but do all cased rounders have the same style of case? are the ribbons all of the same weave pattern? Fuel for thought!

[Tiger 1]

Harry,

How can a case be pertinant to originality? A medal having a case or not is a very easily changed situation. I would venture to say that the majority of the KCs that were "liberated" by allied troops from their original owners were not cased. The same can apply to EKIs and other combat badges also. It would be nonsensical that a soldier would carry around the cases to the awards he is wearing around his neck and elsewhere on his uniform. A soldier's kit, in any army, is lean and there would be no purpose for the soldier to lug around needless items.

Having an original case for a KC is a fine bonus but I find it hard to see how the case can be an indicator of a medal's originality or genuiness.

As for wear or no wear, this is something that the individual collector must learn to differentiate for themselves through evolving study on a regular basis. We cannot disount the condition and aging of any decoration that we are looking at. Even a pristine "mint" conditioned medal should show some perceptable aging to it, however minor or graceful. Nothing can be exactly as when it left the makers shop after the very least 60 years have passed. Everything ages, even the new in the box "mint" items. I would be way more suspicious if it didn't show any age however minor. Time corrupts everything.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

[Marc Garlasco]

Tony,
I agree that a case is not a prerequisite. But the awardees would certainly have the case. So logically, if we accept rounders are real then there should be some coming out of Germany with cases.

Just a thought.
Marc

[Tiger 1]

Sorry Marc,

I was adding a bit to my previous post and initially missed your comments.


To Marc and others,

Some KCs maybe could come with cases from the vets or families. That is a fair statement. But how do we prove that the ensemble was originally so? Even vets are known to say things that are not true even if they happen to believe it to be.

Case in point.

In The Iron Time on pages 306 and 307 that shows a EKII modified to be worn as a substitute KC. The shown is purported to be Horst von Schroeter's ORIGINALY awarded KC. To qoute "This is the Knight's Cross that Schroeter was given. It was discovered to be an Iron Cross Second Class reworked to make due. Schroeter never knew this fact. However it VERIFIES that Second CLasses were INDEED pressed into sevice for such use when critical situations arose." (Italics added for emphisis)

Now if we turn to page 425 and 426. Schroeter himself describes that that his KC and his other medals were in his baggage that was given to a German civilian and that he did not get this baggage returned until two years later. To quote von Schroeter , "In this baggage for instance, had all my medals. My ORIGINAL medals. And so I'm CONVINCED I got this Knight's Cross from Admiral von Friedeburg in June '44 because I have all the other old medals with the swastika. Yes, I'm ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED." The author goes on further stating that "That point settled, the conversation moved on to Schroeter's experiences during the war." (Again italics added.)

How much more sure or convinced can we, as collector's, be about this being so? We have the actual winners statement that a EKII was actually awarded to him in place of a regulation KC and that modified EKII in his pocession. Are we to doubt this information coming from the primary source?

ONE BIG PROBLEM!

This German vet was been scammed by the 'German civilian" whom he gave his baggage to and did not get it back for two years. The modified EKII was not his originally awarded KC.

I know that that statement will need incontrovertable proof. What kind of proof you say?

PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF!

Please look at the wartime portrait of von Schroeter on the upper right of page 425. The KC he is wearing around his neck in this picture is NOT the modified EKII he is ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED as being his original award. Further another different portrait taken apparently at the same time is shown on page 240 of the "Knight's Cross Holder of the U-Boat Service" by Franz Kurowski. My understanding is that these pictures were taken as official portraits of the newly decorated Knight's Cross winner. In both portraits he IS wearing a genuine KC and not a modified EKII.

So, while I have no problem arriving at the conclusion that von Schroeter's original KC was switched during his confinement, Von Schroeter apparently had to be CONVINCED that the modified EKII was his original award. Someone really snowed this poor veteran into thinking something was true when it in reality isn't.

Please look it up and see for yourselves.

Tony

[Marc Garlasco]

Tony,

I have no problem with any of your statements, but there are some German vets with cased original KCs. That is also a fact. not all of them were replaced by thieves, etc. So somewhere there may be a vet with an awarded, cased rounder. We just need to admit the possibility of this.

Marc

[Tiger 1]

Marc,

I agreed as such that that is a fair statement. We have no arguement there. We just have to find that particular German vet.

Tony

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Are there any good clues as to who might have produced these.

I believe Pieter probably has the most RK's with provanence of any member of the forum, does he by chance have one of these??

I'm really sorry but I do NOT have one of these
Pieter.

[George Stimson]

awardee photos

I wonder how many (if any) studio shots of RK awardees show them wearing what is, in effect, a "prop" RK supplied by the studio because their actual award piece had not been given to them yet.

[Tiger 1]

George,

I remember reading somewhere that many of the portraits were taken at the time of the award as an official record. I will try to find that reference for you. As for a studio prop I'm not sure that a genuine KC would be available as a prop.

For some reason Galland's autobiography comes to mind for a reference to these portraits being taken after the award ceremony. I'll have to find my copy and check.

Maybe someone else can add to this.

Tony

[Dietrich Maerz]

I have another theoretical question and hope to get some answers:

Woud a possible fake come out with three different 'models' of the same fake?

With different I mean finish, material, ... and such?

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

How much different?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Significant different!

Dietrich

[Pieter Verbruggen]

I have another theoretical question and hope to get some answers:

Woud a possible fake come out with three different 'models' of the same fake?

With different I mean finish, material, ... and such?

Dietrich

yes... look at the latest GAB, different finishing, hooks and pin assamble, material, zink hollow...(same basic badgedesign).
Pieter

[Tiger 1]

Tom's quote,

"As far as your cross, yes, it looks like it has had artificial wear applied to it. Sorry- that is the way it looks. I am not suggesting it, I am flat out saying it. Look at the images Marshall posted. Also there is not unifomr wear to areas which are high points one would expect. This looks like augmented wear and does not look like real wear. Look at the worn crosses I posted and remove yourself from the whole rounder debate. I am not saying you "aged" the cross, I am just saying it does not look like genuine wear. Are you really saying that the worn iron on the swaz occurred through normal wear, while there was sparing of the beading? Why is there wear on the date, but none on the beading? "


Tom,

Would you look at this web site and please tell me that the wear on this KC is also artificially induced?

www.leisuregalleries.com/kcl12ne.html

I'm sure that you will see the startling similarity of wear patterns to the paint and the beading along with similar patination on the this L/12 KC when compairing it to my worn "Rounder".

Tony