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    #16
    Originally posted by vonStubben View Post
    In my studied opinion, these Oaks are original war time produced by S&L. Those who insist that these were only post war manufactured are wrong in my opinion and are really missing the boat on these. Why?, because it only makes sense that S&L attempted to get a govt. contract when they, as well as the other big companies, were also competing for the contract, but as we know, Godet won out.

    It is now common belief that Juncker also competed in manufacturing this higher award as well but also failed to receive an official contract, yet we know at least one set of Oaks was worn throughout the war having been permanently attached to the pilots KC.

    S&L did not receive the contract to provide them officially, but did make them for display purposes and at least one set of the OLS with elongated swords were worn by General of Panzers, Hasso von Manteuffel. How he received them is a mystery but nobody's going to get me to believe that they were anything other than a S&L product.

    Now that I've said this there will be many who disagree and are going to want me to haggle on and on about it all, but Im not going to get drawn into all that disagreement so I ask those with an open mind, and who have REALLY studied these, to tust my five decades worth of study on this particular subject and accept them as pre May 8, 1945 manufacture. Were they made post 45, yes they were, but not not in the way that these examples were.

    I am convinced that there will come a day when solid evidence will will come to light on this particular type and then everyone is going to want a set.

    Chuck

    Hi Chuck thank you for the info and the others for their input. The oaks look a lot better than the pictures show I try to get good pictures but its hard to get the right lighting to show them in. Again thank you all for your positive input.

    Cliff

    Comment

      #17
      is the kc wartime?

      Comment

        #18
        Very possibly, but NOT, (IMO), for award. Would have to examine in hand.

        Comment

          #19
          Great looking oakleaves and cross .

          Comment

            #20
            Originally posted by transvision View Post
            is the kc wartime?

            Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
            Plus, lets not forget the S&L Type B with Zinc centers to emerge from the woodwork with a direct German pre May 1945 purchase connection.

            1/ Bob Hritz, Kitzingen US vet bring back
            2/ Andreas Klein, unissued one period purchased as a gift for a U-Boot officer
            3/ Dietrich Peltz, example with Oaks & Swords
            4/ Andreas Thies, one from the estate of Oskar-Heinz (Heinrich) "Pritzl" Bär

            http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=zinc+core

            Chris
            Wither one likes the early S&L "Type B" or not, some things are still to be explained. I also am noting the finish on the rims of the KC that started this thread

            Chris

            Comment

              #21
              Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
              Wither one likes the early S&L "Type B" or not, some things are still to be explained. I also am noting the finish on the rims of the KC that started this thread

              Chris
              Whoops

              should have said "whether" instead of "wither"

              haste on spell-check perhaps but may-be it hits the nail on the head. The problem with the S&L Type B, where does wartime end and postwar begin ?

              We do not know for certain. The "4, 935" and "4, 800" are now accepted. Thus at what point did production of the 13 dent row produced rims "wither" away in 1945 ? Were they all maker marked ? Did they use Zinc for the center ?

              " Shop display" pieces are worth consideration. On pages 233 to 234 of the first edition of Bowen's book. He discusses and shows a KC with Oaks & Swords that is in the Imperial War Museum, London. It was deposited there in 1946 via The War Office. He goes on to discuss the KC, Oaks & Swords as a "specimen display piece ".

              I quote;

              "In the reception lounges of German medal manufacturers, one sees selected specimens of their work displayed in glass cabinets and on framed boards - this Ritterkreuz with Oakleaves and Swords has the appearance of being one of those highly finished, specially selected display items used either by the manufacturer themselves or prepared by them for some official government display"

              It would be interesting to know more about these "Shop display" pieces. What is even more interesting with this Imperial War Museum exhibit, it is the type of Oaks & Swords that some attribute to Deumer. The Deumer question is another study in its own right in the study of the KC.

              Do I think that "Shop display" piece explain the high quality, dent row, Type B out there ? No, I can not say one way or the other and who does know for sure ???

              What I can say, "the high quality, dent row, Type B" is a quagmire in the study of S&L KC,s that have become intriguing in their own right,

              Chris

              Comment

                #22
                Cross

                I believe the frame is the early type A frame as the dent row is very light like the one shown in Dietrich book and has no other marks on the frame. I been reading old threads and Bob Hritz has one unmarked neusilber and the core is unmagnetic that was war time used and there were some others also discussed . As for the oaks they also look very well made not mas produced like after the war and the plates wore out. Cliff

                Comment

                  #23
                  Stunning

                  Stunning and important piece. Paint and frosting
                  really looks like the 935/4. It's a B-Frame- hard
                  to see from the pics, but the frame looks early
                  as well. The oaks match the cross very well
                  (Patina / Frosting). Looking forward to Dietrichs
                  comment on these!

                  Wish it was in my collection.

                  Nicolai

                  Comment

                    #24
                    To me the cross is late, very weak dent row (post war for sure)...

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Your KC its a very nice B-Typ. I also have one with the same finish and 14 dent row. Do you have better photos of the dent row ?

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Originally posted by ram1412 View Post
                        Your KC its a very nice B-Typ. I also have one with the same finish and 14 dent row. Do you have better photos of the dent row ?
                        Here is the picture of it.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Originally posted by mwl View Post
                          To me the cross is late, very weak dent row (post war for sure)...
                          I have to ask where you come up with this ? This one is just like the one Bob Hritz had that was pre 45 and was to kitzingen with a zink core to it and same light dent row?

                          Comment

                            #28
                            The dent row is very weak to see or unfavorably photographed.
                            For comparison times the dent row at the piece of mine.


                            Comment

                              #29
                              Originally posted by mwl View Post
                              To me the cross is late, very weak dent row (post war for sure)...
                              One would need to hold the example which started this thread in hand. To my eye, the frosting is so good and intact it is making the dents hard to photograph.

                              Or put another way, the dents are there but have been filled in by the frosting. If it had more wear and tear then the edges of the dents would have become prominent, stand out and thus easier to see in a photo.

                              This is a Type B that one would need to hold or magnify in person to count the exact number of dents in the row and gauge exactly how deep the are,

                              Chris

                              Comment

                                #30
                                cross

                                Here is a better picture of the dent row .
                                Attached Files

                                Comment

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