s&l kc for reveiw

[Dietrich Maerz]

Looking forward to Dietrichs
comment on these!

What is there to say that has not been said hundreds of times before? It is a nice post war B-Type with nice frosting. Not as good as the 935, not even a silver frame. For sure a collecteable item, but not an original from before May 1945.

[Leroy]

Without having the piece which started this thread actually in hand to examine (which is critical), all that can be said is this: it is not an original award piece from before May 1945.

I have said before here that I will no longer engage in argument over these issues, as it is fruitless and counterproductive. I am sticking to that.

There are many of us who believe, based on a number of factors, including our own multi-decade experiences in collecting RK's, that S&L made, during the war, pieces never intended for award, but instead for other purposes.

You do not have to believe it.

[Dietrich Maerz]

You are right, it is of no use to discuss this with further evidence (which might never come).

There are many of us who believe, including those who have huge collections in Germany and started to put them together very, very early and with multi-decades of experience in collecting and talking to the actual RK winners, who are absolutely convinced that these pieces are postwar. I do believe them and I do believe what the pieces tell me.

But I will never ever object to somebody buying them, collecting them, admire them, and whatever they might say about them. As long as they know what they have!

[Leroy]

The European I know who has what most people regard as the finest collection of RK's (and other wonderful material) in the world (including more than one awarded sets of the Brilliants) firmly believes that S&L, during the war, made beautifully finished RK's with non-ferrous cores and non-silver frames. He is a life member here, but no longer posts because of the constant discord and silliness.

Perhaps we will, as my friend Dietrich says, never resolve this issue to the satisfaction of all. In the meantime, just be happy in your collecting.

[chrisje110]

I will step up to the plate here, I am looking for one of those "wartime" S&L Oakleaves

I will offer 500 euro's for every set of Oakleaves just like the one pictures here. Postwar or not I like them for what they are. Feel free to PM me.

[Ludwig]

The European I know who has what most people regard as the finest collection of RK's (and other wonderful material) in the world (including more than one awarded sets of the Brilliants) firmly believes that S&L, during the war, made beautifully finished RK's with non-ferrous cores and non-silver frames. He is a life member here, but no longer posts because of the constant discord and silliness.

Perhaps we will, as my friend Dietrich says, never resolve this issue to the satisfaction of all. In the meantime, just be happy in your collecting.

Which is a great loss for this forum. Seems to me, as more than one of the "heavy bears" has left us. Why? Guess I know the answer...

[Ludwig]

I will step up to the plate here, I am looking for one of those "wartime" S&L Oakleaves

I will offer 500 euro's for every set of Oakleaves just like the one pictures here. Postwar or not I like them for what they are. Feel free to PM me.

Guess you will get as many answers as I got, when I declared my willingness to but S&L KCs with die flaws, that some people thought were fakes... Zero!

[cobra-2001]

cross

My question is why were they making them after the war ? And I though the law stated they were not allowed to have or make the swastika .

[Leroy]

Guess you will get as many answers as I got, when I declared my willingness to but S&L KCs with die flaws, that some people thought were fakes... Zero!

The S&L "higher grades" are extremely hard to find. Godet pieces, in comparison, are downright easy. Here are two S&L O&S, one with an 800-4 RK and one with a non-ferrous core RK. (The only two I have been able to find in 50+
years.)

[chrisje110]

Very very nice Leroy ! If you ever want to get rid of these...

[chrisje110]

Do the "Long Swords" have the same amount of flaws as the regular sets you shown here Leroy ?

[Ludwig]

Excellent sets! Any reverses?

[Dietrich Maerz]

The European I know who has what most people regard as the finest collection of RK's (and other wonderful material) in the world (including more than one awarded sets of the Brilliants) firmly believes that S&L, during the war, made beautifully finished RK's with non-ferrous cores and non-silver frames.

You know that that really isn't an argument? I know two owners of awarded sets of Brillianten (and other really tremendously beautiful material) and they both think that the beautifully finished RKs with non-ferrous cores and non-silver frames are post war productions from S&L. Does that win the argument at a score of 2:1? Certainly not! It is far more productive (and cumbersome and time consuming and tidious) to look for any tangeable facts for or against any topic. To leave the decision to somebody "in the know" is the easy way out IMHO.

And I want to say it again here in case some people misunderstand my position: if you want to buy these types of S&L Knights Crosses, whether based on your own opinion or on the opinion of a rich collector or for reasons of price, beauty, .... do it! It certainly makes no difference to me.

Sometimes I think while reading some of the comments, it would have been better for the hobby in general if we all would have stayed with the "heavy bear" approach. All was nice and dandy and fakes were rare. The exposure of high level fakes with new methods, not only with orders and medals but also in the area of helmets, uniforms, ... has created not only great discord but also more uncertainty. Gone are the days were everything Niemann blessed was good and "veteran buy" was the great seal of approval. Now the majority of collectors want to know "why" and a simple "because I say so" or "such and such says so" without some solid arguments behind it doesn't do the trick anymore. I wonder why that is .... The "because I say so" wasn't really that strong of an argument anyway - I know that some of the "heavy bears" dumped a lot of material that was no longer as "unquestionable good" as it was once thought to be and Niemann left his business and his life time warranties behind quasi overnight and as fast as he could.

But to come back to the topic: Gentry wrote a very nice and scientific article about the S&L Oaks which was published in the International Militaria Collector. Reading that article would help a great deal for this topic.

[Jelle M.]

It always amuses me when people stating and believing these types of s&l crosses and leaves are wartime, but when it comes to money they are only willing to pay peanuts for them. Why? 500€ for wartime oakleaves???? You got to be kidding me.
These things are simply post war, hence the asking price. In the later years of the war it was forbidden to sell the higher grades. After the war the business boomed because of the demand of souvenirs. That's why these were made imo.

[chrisje110]

Nightstalker,

Very simple, I am paying only postwar prices because they will NEVER reach the price of a Godet set or come close to it. Why overpay then ? I buy what I like, postwar or not for my own collection and I like the look of those Oaks.