The Poetschke Iron Cross

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Regarding the correct spelling of Werner's name, it is spelled Poetschke - just like Goethe! Everywhere throughout his SS personnel file (with one expection, a typo) it is spelled Poetschke - no umlaut. Werner was not German-born, he was born in Brussels and emigrated to Germany as a child...As Stephen correctly mentioned the lack of 'runic' SS is not an issue, it all depends on what was available i.e. runic type set for an engraving machine, or typewriter, etc...For me the only 'issue' or question mark regarding this cross is the pin with the '20'. This is not a '20' marked cross, it is a Schinkle cross with a replaced pin and the replaced pin has the number '20' - there is a difference. Where the pin is a replacement there is just about an infinite number of variations, possibilities, etc. Regardless, none of them effect the originality of the cross itself, nor the engraving, nor it's historical value. My assumption is that the pin was wartime replaced and probably field done due to the rough job. There is really no point in his family fixing it post war, and if they had and brought it to a jeweler or such, it would have been repaired with a higher degree of quality...I will take a few more photo's tonight. Best, John

John,

You're the owner and the only that has to be happy with it, but I'm sure you see the many liabilities here....

[Dave Kane]

I know I wasn't invited but as indelicate as it may be....I don't like it, the story and especially the 'defense'.........'20' supplied replacement pins???? Pins crudely replaced 'in the field'???? A '20' which as anal as we are no one can recognize???

If there are questions....and they are making sense....and you don't have a logical answer...leave it alone and walk away!!!

[mads]

John,

The front does not have a typical Shinkel core and there are just too many questions to be answered to this piece.
Here is a thing to think about...here in Norway there are some volunteer items floating around in collections..some of them have fakes in them...why do you suppose that is...postwar tinkering...by the family (for making money) or the recipient himself (has occured on a large Untersturmfuhrer lot bought 10 years ago....he had an entire postwar gala set for using on christmas eve and such as he was still a nazi).
John, you are a very sceptical man regarding uniforms...this scepticism would be very usefull here too.

Mads

[Dave Kane]

I don't intend to piss folks off but......Germans are notorious for the thought..........I can't sell these papers (documents) but I will sell the medals....over and over and over again................

Who hasn't heard the old standard.....The family will sell the medals but NOT the documents..


WHY?

[InfanterieSammler]

...

[Dave Kane]

Nothing at all John! Enjoy the cross...

[InfanterieSammler]

...

[Dave Kane]

I'm gone!!

[Erich B.]

John,
If you got it for free, I certainly wouldn't worry about it! Plus, I don't see what the fuss is about! If you're happy with it, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks--it's your piece in your collection!
Erich

[Anthony Evans]

is the font right for the time?

[InfanterieSammler]

...

[Chris Boonzaier]

John,

I dont see anyone calling you a liar. I do see folks questioning the story of this cross.

This cross could come from anywhere and still have landed in Poetschke's possesion. I have given German vets awards to replace pieces that were lost or damaged, and even here at home, my wifes Grandfather replaced awards after the war, in his case buying copies.

In none of those case did the family know didly as to where pieces came from after the death of the vet.

Noone here was there at the moment when Poetschke got this piece. Did his sister give it to him in 1942? Did some collector / SS HIAG Fan/hanger on send it to him with a letter saying (Dear Herr Poetschke, here is a great engraved EK1 that I would be honored to exchanged for an unmarked one of yours...)

ANYTHING can happen in 20-30 years, many , many things do happen.

As Erich says, EXACTLY what criteria does a jeweller use to determine if engraving is old?

As I said, noone is calling anyone a liar, engraved items are like religion, there are believers, and non believers, it has nothing to do with lying.

It is possible that the whole thing has its roots in the family not knowing where and how pappy picked this thing up, and we are here today trying to see if anyone created a "fake" whereas in fact it was all done in good will. Some fan gave this to Poetschke as a gift in 1978, the family gave it to someone as a nice gesture in 1981, he sold it in good faith in 1994, it was passed on with pride in 2003.

In a case like that... noone has lied, everyone has acted in good faith and the whole thing began because noone knows what happened every step of Poetschke's life in the 30 years after the war.

I got my wifes grandfathers set piece by piece over a number of years. Included was a blockade breaker badge, a real clunker, that I defended for a number of years. After his death I was helping cleaning out his study... and go figure... a reciept for buying it in the early 1960's... explains a lot....
(The story has nothing to do with the cross, but just an illustration of the things we dont know about pieces).

Anyway, my thoughts on the matter? I dont think it is wartime. I think it probably did come from Poetschke, but probably somehow along the lines above. For many collectors that would be desireable on its own.

As with many things engraved, it is up to the owner to feel comfortable with it... show 100 collectors and you will get 100 opinions.

[Peter Wiking]

Thanks for the photos John. Any ideas why there are large edges at the inside of the frame ?

Cheers.
Peter

[hagwalther]

I've been viewing this thread with mild curiosity.

My main problem with the cross relates to the non-runic SS characters.

One would have thought that 'lightening SS' characters would have been essential if not obligitory in the engraving.

As such, I retain a cynical opinion of this item...



Regards ...

[Erich B.]

I don't think a lack of runics would make or break a piece. Himmler's calling cards, in the mid 30's, also utilized regular 'S' vs runic. Also, if this piece is mechanically engraved using a pantograph, usually only standard letters/numbers would be available--no special characters like runes. If it was hand engraved, anything would be possible, but with a non-modified pantograph, only the letter forms set up can be used.
Erich

I've been viewing this thread with mild curiosity.

My main problem with the cross relates to the non-runic SS characters.

One would have thought that 'lightening SS' characters would have been essential if not obligitory in the engraving.

As such, I retain a cynical opinion of this item...



Regards ...