I have studied the photo in post #65, to me the (20)mark and hinge and catch are identical. If the the other cross from mikael is fake for sure then this cross from John is also bad.
respectfully,
jeff
respectfully,
jeff
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Looking for a 30 '06 Chauchat magazine. -
Aside from Gordon Williamson, who has told you for years that this cross is real? I can look thru my files and show you another fake cross that was authenticated by Mr. Williamson too...it doesn't make it real.Comment
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John,
First, I am sorry about these news. I don't know who told you the cross was good either, I would have to respectfully disagree.
Ok, let's take it from the top. Let's forget the engraving, which even on a good cross is more often than not a liability rather than an asset.
The cross has uneven frames.
A "9" that sinks into said frames (a characteristic that would have been cataloged before).
The pin, even if replaced, isn't what a Zimmermann pin is supposed to look like. ("textbook" Zimmermann - http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/iron...rers/20/20.htm)
Then you have a very similar, if not identical, cross for sale on e-bay. With a different engraving.
To me, that all adds up to something "not for my collection".Comment
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I'm not an expert, and in comparison with most who are posting here, a rookie. But, in the last few years, I have handled many EKI's, to include Schinkle form crosses. The cross itself is rather crude, particularly the frame, even taking in to account wear and tear. The pin/hinge/catch between these two crosses are in my opinion from the same source, whatever, whoever, it might have been. I saw Mikael's cross when it came up on e-bay, and it struck me then as a really poor fake, and if this one were offered, I would conclude the same thing.
A question, has anyone seen crosses constructed like this, say 15-20 years ago?? Does anyone else own a cross like either of these two??
Without more than the story, I wouldn't have given either of these a second look. Based on the evidence presented, I would say fake.Comment
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Okay, if you want my opinion -- based on everything I've seen here I don't think that this cross is an authentic, wartime piece. It just has too many questions that cannot be reasonably answered. (And "say so" from a dealer or anybody else is not enough.)
If I saw it at a show I'd look at it for about three seconds and put it back.GeorgeComment
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Dido to George's comment. Seba mentioned forgeting the engraving and examining other parts of the cross. I would then revisit the engraving, knowing that it is identical to two fake pieces in my collection. I would then ask Gordon for a second opinion. I would then, if possible, return this piece from whence it has come. I am sorry I did not make that clearer in my first post.
StephenComment
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To be clear I said forget the engraving because that's already a liability, as IMO it almost always is. Because that's so tricky, I steer away from it.Originally posted by Stephen PreviteraComment
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Lets forget about the engraving for the moment and just concentrate on the cross.. the frame and the core and forget about the hinge, pin and catch.
Does anyone else have or know of a cross with the same core and frame?
The date is very distinctive, as is the frame. In fact, looking at the frame it doesn't have the quality I would expect... it isn't uniform width all around and the curvature in the arms seems off.
I've just had a look through the 'Iron Cross of 1939' and can see nothing that matches.
In the 'Iron Time' the closest match is that of the EK1 on the bottom of page 249 but looking closely the date doesn't appear to be the same.
RichLast edited by Rich G; 12-27-2004, 04:15 PM.Comment
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Well John, anything is possible. But take a look at this picture, the front of the bad EK posted with the "20" pin. Is the 9 underneath the frame here too? Hard to tell, but if so, another bad point for it. I wonder if anyone else has good pictures of the front of that cross.Comment
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About seven years ago a cross engraved to Werner Poetschke was auctioned off on Ebay. I didnt save any info from that auction but I distinctly remember the auction and that it was for an engraved Iron Cross to Werner Poetschke.I dont remember what the cross looked like whether it was a Schinkle or not.Why do I remember it because I was interested in Poetschke as an officer and was surprised because the seller of the cross was either playing ignorant or was ignorant to who Poetschke was.Thats my honest input John I dont know if it was your cross or not but, those who know me know I dont play the "its a fake game". Were any Imperial crosses marked with a 20 like that by any chance?Comment
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In my memory i have seen that back side off a shickel before also. It can have been a Polish made?. And do think it was at some auction place. Cant say if that one also was markt. That pin type are on other "fakes". And what about that rim terribel made.
MikaelComment
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