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**Norm F** · 01-25-2015, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post

Hi Norm,

Now your look becomes better. You realize that the piece can not be considered as a reference.

This piece has nothing in common with a war S & L piece. And anything with an S & L post-war piece together with the 3 pieces I have shown.

It is a hybrid of parts.

Greeting LC

Sorry Hans Günter, my view hasn't changed at all. I've never suggested the droop tail eagle example was assembled in wartime. All I'm saying is everything else on that board is comprised of wartime leftovers so why not that one too, and there is some connection between S&L and the droop tail eagle. In other words, Souval is not the only one who produced a droop tail eagle.

Best regards,
---Norm

**Legion Condor** · 01-25-2015, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

More correctly, maybe yes and maybe no. You and I have no proof.

Best regards,
---Norm

But I have prove. My 3 pieces occupy the post war pieces of S & L.

**Thomas Durante** · 01-25-2015, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post

Yes, if remnants of war. But the Eagles are no remnants of war.

If you take the "souvenier boards" at face value and that they are only made up of 100% wartime-made leftovers then you would have to admit that S&L made Spanish crosses with 2 different eagles during the war.

I personally am not sure these souvenier boards are only made up of wartime leftovers because of these 2 factors:

1. We don't know the dates of these boards (are they 1946 or 1950?)

and

2. We don't know when S&L started new die production of awards they didn't make during the war.

So without knowing the answers to these 2 questions, we cannot say with 100% certainty that items on these boards are 100% wartime made. With that said, the closer these boards can be dated to the end of the war, the better chance that everything on that board is a true wartime leftover IMO. The emedals board that contained the droop tail Spanish Cross that we are discussing alledgedly came from a vet acquired at late 1945 or early 1946, so if that can be taken at face value and we think S&L didn't start new die production until after 1946 then we must admit that S&L had access to and used two different type of eagles on their spanish crosses during the war.

Tom

**Norm F** · 01-25-2015, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

But definitely not a hinge and pin associated with S&L production, would you agree Norm? So what is it doing on an alledged "wartime" S&L Spanish Cross?

Hi Tom,

I certainly see what you mean, but sometimes a pin system would be award specific. The straight pin on the S&L Tombak Minesweeper doesn't appear on any other S&L badge or on their EK1 that I can think of off-hand.

So maybe S&L gave the prestige item of the 800 silver Spanish Cross a distinct pin system?

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

S_L-marked.jpg (239.0 KB, 63 views)

**Legion Condor** · 01-25-2015, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

But definitely not a hinge and pin associated with S&L production, would you agree Norm? So what is it doing on an alledged "wartime" S&L Spanish Cross?

I would like to know the provenance of Brian's cross, as well as Hans Gunthers. Both of them have stated emphatically that both are "no doubt, 100% wartime original crosses" and I want to know why they are so sure.

Tom

Hi Tom,

how many pieces you have shown in your books, were secured. What is safe for you.

Is it ok for you when I say that I have it with documents from the carrier. Or do you want a Foro where Thoma gave it to me personally.

**Norm F** · 01-25-2015, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post

But I have prove. My 3 pieces occupy the post war pieces of S & L.

Surely you can see that the existence of the first eagle into the post-war period doesn't prove that the droop tail didn't coexist with it. And it doesn't prove one way or the other if the droop tail was a rejected wartime design. There's no reason why S&L couldn't have left behind two eagle designs for post-war examples to be put together or duplicated by either themselves or a 3rd party.

Best regards,
---Norm

**Legion Condor** · 01-25-2015, 12:08 PM

I think we turn in circles here. And do not come on.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

**Thomas Durante** · 01-25-2015, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

The straight pin on the S&L Tombak Minesweeper doesn't appear on any other S&L badge or on their EK1 that I can think of off-hand.

Hi Norm

Right, but it does appear on Deumer and Funcke & Bruninghaus EK1s, so we know this type of straight tapered pin was in Ludenscheid and used by makers close to S&L. So that makes it plausible to find on an S&L badge IMO.

I don't think that is the case with the wide-bellied pin we see on Brian's SK. BH Mayer used this pin alot, and as you say so did Rettenmaier, Wiedmann, Deschler, etc. None of these makers was in Ludenscheid so this type of pin just seems out of place on a Ludenscheid-made badge in my opinion.

Even if we can look past the pin, we still have the challenge of that particular open block hinge. That too is a common Schickle or Mayer trait, but not anything we see on Ludenscheid-based makers that I can think of. It doesn't seem to appear in Ludenscheid until the postwar years, where we find it on postwar Assmann and S&L badges.

It all just seems out of place IMO, but who knows. I really would love to test Brian's cross for silver content.

Tom

**Leroy** · 01-25-2015, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

From the same set of boards was an S&L variant set of Oakleaves & Swords, with the same sloppy soldering. "Finished" versions of this type were also in existence. While it is well known that S&L put on these boards awards "ready to go" at the end of the war, together with pieces sometimes crudely assembled from parts, I wondered at the time these boards were first found if some of the pieces could just as likely be "training pieces" for workers or factory rejects.

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

And note what Gentry said was included on the Lüdenscheid boards: "Items ready to be shipped, items not finished but crudely completed with leftover parts, quality control rejects, prototypes, mistakes, special orders....whatever was around." The droop tail eagles could easily be among all that, even if it was a rejected design in wartime.
---Norm

And I stick with all the above.

**Norm F** · 01-25-2015, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Right, but it does appear on Deumer and Funcke & Bruninghaus EK1s, so we know this type of straight tapered pin was in Ludenscheid and used by makers close to S&L. So that makes it plausible to find on an S&L badge IMO.

I don't think that is the case with the wide-bellied pin we see on Brian's SK. BH Mayer used this pin alot, and as you say so did Rettenmaier, Wiedmann, Deschler, etc. None of these makers was in Ludenscheid so this type of pin just seems out of place on a Ludenscheid-made badge in my opinion.
...
It all just seems out of place IMO, but who knows. I really would love to test Brian's cross for silver content.

Tom

Fair enough. But does the inverse taper pin used on S&L zincers appear elsewhere in Lüdenscheid? For years these were mistakenly assumed to be F&B just because the pin was associated with Pforzheim. (Mind you we could equally speculate that all the S&L zinc badges with this setup were post-war assembly -- and there are a ton of them.)

Eventually one has to make an educated guess based upon quality and finish compared with wartime and post-war pieces (unless there's good provenance of course). The silver cross seems better quality than any known post-war piece for what that's worth and the catch and L/16 mark look good.

I don't think testing the silver content would help. Souval produced many real 800 silver products that were still post-war production. It would only help if it turned out not to be silver - a somewhat less likely scenario.

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

2.5.5_S&Lzinc2.jpg (148.3 KB, 73 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 01-25-2015, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post

Is it ok for you when I say that I have it with documents from the carrier. Or do you want a Foro where Thoma gave it to me personally.

Hi Hans,

Admittedly, I don't have provenance for every badge I show in my books. But with very rare and controversial items (such as the FLL-made Heer Paratrooper Badge), I show them in the book with all the evidence I had at the time to support my contention that they were wartime produced.

I think we need to take the same approach with the S&L spanish cross (and S&L DK, S&L Luftwaffe GAB, etc.). On the one hand we have a claim from you as to what a "wartime" S&L Spanish Cross looks like based on your acquisition of it from a vet grouping. The cross itself looks very good, nicely detailed and with good finish. For me this is all good news, despite the fact that it carries a PKZ number that was likely not around at the time of the awarding of the SK.

On the other hand, we have a souvenier sample board that carries a spanish cross with a different eagle. The story about the souvenier board is believable, and also the fact that it is just like several other souvenier boards that have been found with also wartime-compatible badges, suggesting they are indeed comprised of wartime-made leftovers.

It is extremely hard to make a judgement call based on such little information. Even so, you seem to be making a judgement on what is wartime versus what is postwar based on a single cross that came in a vet grouping. On the other hand, you dismiss the droop tail cross on the souvenier board as a 1-of or some postwar creation. With only single examples of each to go on, how do you completely believe the vet grouping but dismiss the souvenier board (which is also a vet acquisition)?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some badges on the souvenier boards are pure post-war creations. Especially the further away from the end of the war when they were made. Likewise, I am also skeptical of "vet groupings" and see examples on a daily basis where fakes are found in vet's estates.

So when it comes to a rare item like an S&L SK, I think it is important to document where and when it was acquired. If we had started doing this back in 1950 there would be alot less questions and controversy today!

Thanks

Tom

**Thomas Durante** · 01-25-2015, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

Eventually one has to make an educated guess based upon quality and finish compared with wartime and post-war pieces (unless there's good provenance of course). The silver cross seems better quality than any known post-war piece for what that's worth and the catch and L/16 mark look good.

Hi Norm,

I completely agree here. Brian's cross does look good.

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

I don't think testing the silver content would help. Souval produced many real 800 silver products that were still post-war production.

I think it would help Norm, because if it turns out not be real silver then we can immediately stop talking about it

Tom

**Legion Condor** · 01-25-2015, 12:58 PM

Hi Tom,

all the pieces that I show as reference also have a hedged.

Only these pieces with L / 16 and 4 occur in groups. These have never head error.

The pieces only with L / 16 have no head error.

The pieces only with the 4 always show the head error. And I have 100% proof that the pieces after the war is.

I have other pieces of L / 16 and 4. FIG.

I think we are very Objectively here. And do not always prove anything. There just pieces of the doubt regarded as original.

My research began 20 years ago and I could see many things and learn a lot. Many groups have the L / 16 and 4 pieces.

Greeting LC

Hans goods

**Leroy** · 01-25-2015, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post

The pieces only with the 4 always show the head error. And I have 100% proof that the pieces after the war is.

This is not true.

**Leroy** · 01-25-2015, 01:26 PM

These are photos taken just a few minutes ago by me of a cross obtained directly by me from an American combat vet at least 30 years ago. That may not mean anything, but you can see it is only marked "4" and has NO "head error". In an earlier post, you said you cannot find a Bronze grade S&L SK without the "4".

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