S&L SC in silber

[Norm F]

Here's another compilation of Alex's 1960's badges from the side showing another difference between the two L/58 marked badges and the "S&L-attributed" droop tail, this time in the side of the central medallion.

[Leroy]

If you look at the design on the cover of the box for the "Next of Kin" Spain Cross, it used a cross with down-tailed eagles. Similarly, in the design drawing of the SK shown in early publications, the eagles actually alternate, as they go around the cross, between eagles with a turned-down tail and eagles with a "flared" tail (i.e. what we now call the "regular" eagle). The standard Luftwaffe eagle worn in 1936 was the down-tailed version and, if you look at the officers being presented with the SK with Brilliants when they returned in 1939, ALL have down-tailed eagles on their uniforms.

S&L's "standard production" cross was certainly not the "down-tailed eagle" type; however, there is absolutely no reason it could not have produced a version with down-tailed eagles, whether by mistake or confusion or by intention for special order. There does not seem to be any doubt that collectors have recognized separate SK designs postwar for S&L and Souval, each using a very slightly different version of a down-tail eagle and, as Norm already mentioned, Souval never even produced any SK at all during the war. Who knows at this date why this was done? Perhaps S&L just had a supply of these eagles left over to use up. The body of the cross design is the same as their "regular crosses".

The "mistake or confusion" element is a real factor. The version we see from the "souvenir board", IF the color is true, is a Gold without Swords, a design not adopted. (The piece was listed later by eMedals as a Gold grade.) You had a Bronze with or without Swords, a Silver with or without Swords, but a Gold only with Swords. The design we see from the board may have been sitting around, rejected, and just completed to have one more thing for a board. At this date we will never know with certainty.

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

I stick to it. It makes no logic, the S & L produces two eagles. The eagles as they know of War pieces was also continued to be produced exactly to the head error after the war. OB S & L itself or with the original tool somewhere else.

S & L has itself produced certainly no longer crosses Spain after 1957. They had experienced the FRG orders for orders and produce many other things as decorations. There was need for there and it was so earns you money.

S & L certainly had no interest in his Handsome orders to lose because 10 Spain crosses.

What I can imagine is that Soval scored Surplus S & L. And only a piece where nothing exactly knows how it arose so much to draw connections is not scientific. It's just rates.

We have only to prove the S & L Tools was used after the war. And everything else is just opinions and not busy.

Greeting LC

[Leroy]

One thing at a time

Hansgunter - Forget the eagles, as if they were not there at all.

Do you believe that the body, the color, and the hardware setup for this cross are acceptable as wartime S&L?

[Thomas Durante]

Hans Gunther, what is the provenance of your example? When was it awarded and do you have any evidence of it being worn by the recipient?

Likewise, Brian what is the provenance of your example (marked L/16 & 800 with BH Mayer setup)?

Thanks

Tom

[Norm F]

Hansgunter - Forget the eagles, as if they were not there at all.

Do you believe that the body, the color, and the hardware setup for this cross are acceptable as wartime S&L?

While we're waiting for Hans Günter's reply, I'll offer an opinion. To me the hardware and cross itself are certainly wartime compatible and likely leftover stock in May, 1945 but I would wager the eagles were soldered on post-war. The soldering job is very sloppy compared with Hans Günter's "wartime" cross, and in one area on the top right of the reverse it looks like a repair was done after the finish was applied since there is no finish on the solder.

I still believe it likely that S&L somehow had access to the droop tail eagles.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here are a couple more images of what I understand are considered wartime L/16 marked examples.

First a bronze example without swords from M-B's website with the block hinge setup and second the silver example with swords previously posted by Brian that Tom referred to as the "Mayer setup" but really has the standard S&L catch combined with a pin system used by Schickle, Mayer, Deschler and Rettenmaier on their EK1s.

[Legion Condor]

Hello Leroy,

the center disk and swastika looks different as S & L. The needle is another. The hallmark is also different from the 4 S & L. Important is that the piece has no L / 16 Hallmark. Typically, after the war.

The junctions of the eagle to the Cross are also not good. Have never seen such a bad piece.

The cross-body could be S & L, but that's all. The whole piece is built from scraps.

The piece has no basis for research. Just to advise.

Greeting LC

[Norm F]

The piece has no basis for research. Just to advise.

Of course it has basis for research (if that translated properly). The post-war assembly of wartime leftovers is an important area to study.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

While we're waiting for Hans Günter's reply, I'll offer an opinion. To me the hardware and cross itself are certainly wartime compatible and likely leftover stock in May, 1945 but I would wager the eagles were soldered on post-war. The soldering job is very sloppy compared with Hans Günter's "wartime" cross, and in one area on the top right of the reverse it looks like a repair was done after the finish was applied since there is no finish on the solder.

I still believe it likely that S&L somehow had access to the droop tail eagles.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,

Now your look becomes better. You realize that the piece can not be considered as a reference.

This piece has nothing in common with a war S & L piece. And anything with an S & L post-war piece together with the 3 pieces I have shown.

It is a hybrid of parts.

Greeting LC

[Legion Condor]

Of course it has basis for research (if that translated properly). The post-war assembly of wartime leftovers is an important area to study.

Best regards,
---Norm

Yes, if remnants of war. But the Eagles are no remnants of war.

[Norm F]

The hallmark is also different from the 4 S & L.

It's the same "4" mark that appears on S&L's late production zinc KVK1 with the cast-in hardware. Seems perfectly compatible with late wartime or early post-war use.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Yes, if remnants of war. But the Eagles are no remnants of war.

More correctly, maybe yes and maybe no. You and I have no proof.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

and second the silver example with swords previously posted by Brian that Tom referred to as the "Mayer setup" but really has the standard S&L catch combined with a pin system used by Schickle, Mayer, Deschler and Rettenmaier on their EK1s.

But definitely not a hinge and pin associated with S&L production, would you agree Norm? So what is it doing on an alledged "wartime" S&L Spanish Cross?

I would like to know the provenance of Brian's cross, as well as Hans Gunthers. Both of them have stated emphatically that both are "no doubt, 100% wartime original crosses" and I want to know why they are so sure.

Tom

[Legion Condor]

It's the same "4" mark that appears on S&L's late production zinc KVK1 with the cast-in hardware. Seems perfectly compatible with late wartime or early post-war use.

Best regards,
---Norm

Yes, exactly. By late war or post-war pieces. But not the war hallmark of S & L pieces.