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**tom hansen** · 12-18-2004, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Brian S

Case not closed for me. But no proof exists to suggest any of these are restrikes (please don't take this sentence out of context). Exacting craftsmanship does not conclude originality but does point in that direction. Fortunes have been made in this business and it is healthy to have a questioning mind. A healthy, repeat that healthy discussion is good and will help keep this hobby safer. It's very important to get to the bottom of every award if possible. Especially the highend pieces. Multiply just 10 of these times their retail value and you have a very nice lifestyle. If we are not the watchdogs of this hobby, who is?

For now we have nothing and you all should be content with the pieces you have. But if I had one of these which I did a few years ago (mine was nicely worn, wish I still had it...), I would be more content to know that a highend collector got the dies and they've been sitting on his shelf since he bought them in mid 80's next to a cased set of wartime KQ RK's. On a comfort scale these for me rank higher than flawed S&L's by a large margin. Bottom line, nothing suggests these are anything other than original pieces. You just have to combine that with a fact that dies were sold in the 80's. That just leaves us with a collective "oh!". Nothing more, nothing less.

Very nicely stated. That sums up my feelings exactly. I am, however, more comfortable with my K&Q after this thread. I also very much agree that any limitation of discussion or lack of participation simply heightens levels of suspicion and is more harmful than good. It is only through discussions like these that you found out the dodgy oaks, despite being slammed for that effort!

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 12-18-2004, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by tom hansen

Very nicely stated. That sums up my feelings exactly. I am, however, more comfortable with my K&Q after this thread. I also very much agree that any limitation of discussion or lack of participation simply heightens levels of suspicion and is more harmful than good. It is only through discussions like these that you found out the dodgy oaks, despite being slammed for that effort!

Beyond this thread, which we all agree makes everyone more comfortable with this maker, I don't know how else to state that I don't want this particular forum to exist for perpetuating rumors (there are places that do this well). This isn't so much as a request as it is a goal. I will do what needs to be done to achieve this goal. Take that any way you would like.

**tom hansen** · 12-18-2004, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Sebastian Bianchi

Beyond this thread, which we all agree makes everyone more comfortable with this maker, I don't know how else to state that I don't want this particular forum to exist for perpetuating rumors (there are places that do this well). This isn't so much as a request as it is a goal. I will do what needs to be done to achieve this goal. Take that any way you would like.

My statements were not intended to take a swipe at you, Seba, so I apologize if that is how it appeared. That was not my intention at all. The bottom line is that this rumor was addressed and is being addressed to come to conclusions, which is a good outcome. That is a very useful and beneficial function of this site. I think that some of the very established collectors have become frustrated by these discussions and have "bailed" as a result, as they consider such discussions uncomfortable and contentious. I think they would change their mind if they had ever sat throgh morbity and mortality conferences! I think everyone, regardless of experience, has something to learn here.

Which brings up the paint issue. That I think will open a whole vista of analysis which has been missing before. It may be a little pricey, but can be used sparingly for "big" issues like these. But I think if there is bad news as a result of that, we just need to button up and take it straight. I think it will turn out the other way, quite honestly.

**Brian S** · 12-18-2004, 02:09 PM

What did I say or do to deserve this warning?

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 12-18-2004, 02:27 PM

Why should the goal of running a forum that doesn't perpetuate unsubstantiated rumors be seen as a warning?

**Dave Kane** · 12-18-2004, 03:55 PM

Seba, I think that DISCUSSION has been the backbone of this Forum's success..

This venue has never been a 'feel good', 'back slapping', ooooohhh and aaahhhh site catering to selfserving believers in anything showing a swastica.

These issues have to be brought forth and surgically taken apart as new collectors enter the hobby...

The old guard held all of this information among its cliques!

Rumor has to be discussed, facts analyzed but in a civil manner otherwise you end up with a forum of 8 to 10 mindless people throwing compliments back and forth!!!

I'll add a few RUMORS or so they were called (25) years ago....

Mint M43 Helmets converted to SS......now found to be a fact!
K98k's turned in to SNIPER versions......fact
SS marked leather found in Norway.....rumor at the time....subsequently shown to be fact.
Tropical steel helmets...leftover stock.....Rumor.....now fact

I could probably go on an on....

**milsurp** · 12-18-2004, 07:02 PM

Brian, you said "You just have to combine that with a fact that dies were sold in the 80's." This isn't a fact, this is the rumour that we're trying to quell.

**Brian S** · 12-19-2004, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Craig Henninger

Brian, you said "You just have to combine that with a fact that dies were sold in the 80's." This isn't a fact, this is the rumour that we're trying to quell.

OK: Gordon's research is rumor and we need to quell it. I have his first book from the eighties. If I'm not mistaken he was writing books on these items when the majority of the people collecting these today were finishing high school. Specifically he had written "The Iron Cross" in 1984.

The foreward to his book is by Heinrich Springer. "The visit of the young author, Gordon Williamson, to West Germany during the spring of 1982 gave me the opportunity to study the manuscript of his book... The meeting of such a young Briton, who has studied a part of modern German history with great determinatino, and about forty ex-officers of both World Wars was a special experience for all of us." Und so weiter.

I don't consider what I've read by this "author" to be anything other than scholarly work. If quoting him here and trying to research further is considered rumor making, I am guilty as charged.

**milsurp** · 12-19-2004, 06:41 AM

Brian, are you insinuating Gordon stated the dies were sold in the 80's? I have never read this (or noticed this) in his books or on this forum. Can you please point out where he made this remark or even better transcribe his statement here?

**tom hansen** · 12-19-2004, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Craig Henninger

Brian, are you insinuating Gordon stated the dies were sold in the 80's? I have never read this (or noticed this) in his books or on this forum. Can you please point out where he made this remark or even better transcribe his statement here?

12-19-2002, 12:26 PM </TD><TD class=thead style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal" align=right> #5 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175>Gordon Williamson<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_114780", true); </SCRIPT>
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<HR color=#cfb992 SIZE=1>Dave,

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated. When I was working on the book, I made contact with a guy in Oberstein whose father worked for Klein & Quenzer. He got me a lot of the info and some details from the local chamber of commerce on the firm. When the firm closed down in 1985, much of the tooling was sold off and I was told that the dies for the Knight's Cross were sold to someone in the US.
This guy's father grabbed the EK1 dies as a souvenir and still has them.
A lot of people don't like the K&Q pieces but I have always found them to be one of the better made Knight's Crosses, always well done and with considerable care put into the finishing. I rate K&Q pieces very highly
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**milsurp** · 12-19-2004, 09:07 AM

OK thanks Tom, sorry Brian.

**tom hansen** · 12-19-2004, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Craig Henninger

OK thanks Tom, sorry Brian.

Another one, which may give you some comfort

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04-23-2004, 12:16 AM </TD><TD class=thead style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal" align=right> #5 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175>Gordon Williamson<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_420484", true); </SCRIPT>
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<HR color=#cfb992 SIZE=1>Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Biro
Bob

The 'abundance' of K&Q about has been discussed before here many times, and stems, (from what I've read, although no matter how hard I search, I can't actually find the words from the 'horses' mouth - sorry Gordon) partly from a comment Gordon W apparently made about K&Q dies surviving the war.

I could be way off beam here, so I don't want to throw unsubstantiated quotes about...but I also beleive he qualified the statement with the fact that 'survivng dies' and 'finished, composite and convincing' K&Q RK's with period materials are two entirely different matters...

I'm sure there are many private opinions out there that will, unfortunately, remain private, but whatever the truth, the K&Q RK dosen't seem to attract anywhere NEAR the same bad press that, for example, a flawed S&L does...

I hope so....I have a vested interest... so please, discuss away gentlemen...

Marshall
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I had some correspondence a few years back with a German collector whose father worked in the K & Q firm. Their dies certainly survived the war and remained with the firm for quite a while (the firm made household objects after the war). They eventually sold off all their tooling and any remaining stocks of awards lying in storage (this guys father grabbed the EK1 dies as a souvenir , probably some of the other employees took stuff also). I don't know specifically what happened to the RK dies at that point but was told some of the tooling was sold to a America (the tooling for the naval badges was specifically mentioned).

The tooling presumably still survives though I've seen or heard no evidence of it being used for restrikes.
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**Sebastian Bianchi** · 12-19-2004, 07:54 PM

While I respect Gordon's works, I would say what "some guy" whose father worked there heard or didn't hear is rumor. Probably why it was never included in any printed work.

Also, Gordon very specifically says that he does not know what happened with the RK dies.

**tom hansen** · 12-19-2004, 10:26 PM

Again- here is what Gordon has to say about this on another thread that clarifies his position.

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01-07-2004, 03:12 PM </TD><TD class=thead style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal" align=right>#51 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175>Gordon Williamson<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_326997", true); </SCRIPT>

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<HR color=#cfb992 SIZE=1>I've never heard of any evidence of the Deschler tooling be used post-war. I suspect Jamie is confusing this with the use of the Godet tooling.

Klein & Quenzer tooling certainly survived the war, but I know for a fact that at least the EK1 dies were not re-used. The EK1 dies were blagged by one of the employees as a souvenir when the firm finally cleared out all the old wartime tooling and he still has them. What happened to the others or if they were ever used to make restrikes I have no idea, but the lack of any convincing copies suggests not.Having the dies is one thing, having the expertise to make a perfect replica including the all imporatnt finishing, is quite another matter.

The only Juncker dies that seen to have been known to have been destroyed with any certainty were the RK and Bandenkampfabzeichen though there may well have been others. Notwithstanding the fact that it was technically illegal to do so, Juncker certainly make restrikes after WW2. It is well known (and recorded I believe in one of Klietmanns books) that they remade the 20 Juli 1944 Wound Badge on the twentieth anniversary of the assassination attempt. May have been something to do with the fact that being in Berlin, they were not in fact controlled by the West German government at that time but the Allied Control Comission. Maybe they were lax about controlling such infringements, or just couldn't be bothered.
It seems to have been an open secret that S&L were remaking stuff and no one seems to have bothered them about it.

Misuse of the L/12 mark on fakes certainly caused a loss of confidence in Juncker stuff for some considerable time. Never bothered me much because a) they weren't exactly big producers of KM awards and b) they are my least favourite RK (any product where they had to file lumps out of the frame to get the core to fit doesn't speak highly of the quality of their manufacture to me). The Juncker RK may be a "safe" bet because it has never been successfully copied , but aesthetically it leaves me cold. Rather have a Steinhauer, K&Q or Zimmermann any day.

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**tom hansen** · 12-19-2004, 10:51 PM

So this seems to state that Gordon does not have evidence of restrikes, but notes that other dies were sold/acquired.

Brian- open up your PM mailbox- I sent a PM.

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