Klein & Quenzer A.G.

[Erich B.]

I suspect that the paint used from the 20s through the 50's at least in Germany will be made up of the same pigments and substances. Materials were in short supply after the war and I don't think the formulations would have changed until the later 1960s.
Erich

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Tom, I look forward to the results of your study as well. Why not? The more study, the better.

I should qualify that by saying that I wouldn't go to these extremes. I'm very happy and satisfied with the cross. I refer back to my "conclution" post.

[tom hansen]

Tom,


but always remember: Old paint can be attached to new steel. I know it's done in the field of faking hunting decoys (ducks) by using old lead based paint. It will not be conclusive if the paint is old, but it will be exclusive if the paint is new.

Dietrich

I agree.

[Brian S]

Something I have trouble comprehending, is why we haven't seen progressive die flaws, I expected to see some, but at least we haven't found any on the crosses we have examined, well at least not yet. Surely you can only manufacture RK's using dies in one way.... Is it possible we don't have a varied enough cross section of crosses?

Craig, a die with a limited production does not necessarily have to show ANY wear whatsoever. I am surprised by the S&L flaws but not surprised if you take into consideratin the 57 stress, wear and tear by people who probably weren't the craftsmen working on the '39's. A die should be able to produce a few thousand without any signs of degradation. But you push the pressure too high, use inferior metal and you can crack a die. Or, if a die has a weak spot it can crack. Lots of ifs but not necessary to show die wear especially on several hundreds.

[Hansi]

Can you guys tell me what the DN catalogue price is for a mint boxed K&Q RK with ribbon?
And for comparison the same made by Juncker.

Regards
Hansi

[Erich B.]

K&Q--RK $/Euro 5700.00; K&Q marked case 1400.00; paper carton 1000.00
Juncker--which marking? They're all different. The low end is a unmarked Juncker with non-magnetic core @ 4000.00; the high end is the Juncker 'micro 2' @ 7000.00; case 1200.00; paper carton 1000.00.
Erich

Can you guys tell me what the DN catalogue price is for a mint boxed K&Q RK with ribbon?
And for comparison the same made by Juncker.

Regards
Hansi

[Hansi]

Many Thanks Erich.

I am concidering to exchange my K&Q to a Juncker one, if there might be any chance. My happiness about my recently bought K&Q is more and more degreasing by reading this thread.

Regards
Hansi

[Erich B.]

Hansi,
I wouldn't jump to sell/trade it if I were you. I've owned 2 later war groupings from families of the winner with K&Q RKs and, at least my interpretation of this thread is that there's no reason to think there are a preponderance of postwar produced examples. I tend to like Junckers the best (maybe because my first RK purchased in the 70s was an L/12 Juncker) but K&Qs are nice pieces as well.
Erich

Many Thanks Erich.

I am concidering to exchange my K&Q to a Juncker one, if there might be any chance. My happiness about my recently bought K&Q is more and more degreasing by reading this thread.

Regards
Hansi

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Hasi, please don't jump to a drastic matter like that based on this thread. If you get a Juncker and start a thread about that, you’ll have a similar result from the naysayer. Trust me, if the evidence in this thread isn’t enough, nothing will be.

In fact, if anything, you should be feeling very well about it! I’m going to go ahead and say it; In my opinion, and I know I'm not alone, these are 100% pre-1945 pieces and you should embrace it as such.

[Marc Garlasco]

I agree. Let's face facts - there were KCs made and worn. Given enough naysayers they will talk you out of everything! We have good provenece on one, and good matching die-flaws. After this thread we have learned a lot!
Marc

[tom hansen]

Many Thanks Erich.

I am concidering to exchange my K&Q to a Juncker one, if there might be any chance. My happiness about my recently bought K&Q is more and more degreasing by reading this thread.

Regards
Hansi

Hansi- There is a thread which started yesterday on the militaria collectors fourm site claiming that the dies survived the war and that there are restrikes of juncker being produced today in europe and are being released on the market! I am sure as hell not selling my K&Q based on any of this, and I am one the guys bringing this issue up. I think we have learned a great deal about the K&Q from this thread and it has bolstered, rather than diminished, my confidence in these pieces. I am less of a skeptic now than before.

Continuing skepticism and questioning of pieces is a good thing, as that is how we learn. I think that some people take these inquiries as personal attacks if they are owners of the pieces under question. However, if we shed the emotional componant, it will be easier to learn more about these pieces- good or bad.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Continuing skepticism and questioning is only a good thing if done the right way. Some of the cynicism displayed by some participants of these threads borders on the unhealthy though. Also, I see discussions taking a backwards approach - assuming that something is fake or questionable and attempting to prove the opposite, when the pieces clearly shows all the trademarks of an original. This thread is a prime example of that fault. In my opinion that is not an optimal approach.

I've also grown leery of these rumors based on hearsay from, in my opinion, less than reputable sources and I am committed to eliminating that vise from this forum. I do not want this site to be a vehicle for perpetuating unconfirmed rumors and dubious reports; we'll not be yelling fire in the crowed theater here, and the moderators and I will be on watch for this from this moment forth.

I admit we're veering off topic, so it's probably best we continue this in private or in another thread, because this is an important discussion and a point that needs to be addressed.

[tom hansen]

Seba-


This has been the most detailed thread on the K&Q that I can find on this site. No one has ever discussed these die flaws, and they should have a long time ago. It took the impetus of these contentions to explore this maker on more detail and I think everyone learned something. Harry should be comended for brining this up . If a theory is wrong, the data will show it. Let the theories come about and data will be shown to prove or disprove those contentions and a criticial analysis can occur. Otherwise we will end up accepting dodgy oaks, dotted DKiGs and the like without critical evaluation.

This is not "yelling fire" in a crowded theater. This is putting fires out. Unless we bring these rumors up and deal with them in a factual manner, they continue to perpetuate. Again, I think this thread has taken steps to dispel this rumor, not support it. However, the rumor needs to be presented to address it.

[Harry]

Having started this rigmarole, I feel much more enthusiastic about my K&Q cross(es) now than I did previously. They may not be everyone's favourite, but they are superb. There have been many K&Qs shown here, ALL identical - they have to be original 'cos if there were copies/restrikes amongst them, we would expect to see some variation in quality and assembly. That does it for me anyway, case closed as far as I am concerned!

[Brian S]

Case not closed for me. But no proof exists to suggest any of these are restrikes (please don't take this sentence out of context). Exacting craftsmanship does not conclude originality but does point in that direction. Fortunes have been made in this business and it is healthy to have a questioning mind. A healthy, repeat that healthy discussion is good and will help keep this hobby safer. It's very important to get to the bottom of every award if possible. Especially the highend pieces. Multiply just 10 of these times their retail value and you have a very nice lifestyle. If we are not the watchdogs of this hobby, who is?

For now we have nothing and you all should be content with the pieces you have. But if I had one of these which I did a few years ago (mine was nicely worn, wish I still had it...), I would be more content to know that a highend collector got the dies and they've been sitting on his shelf since he bought them in mid 80's next to a cased set of wartime KQ RK's. On a comfort scale these for me rank higher than flawed S&L's by a large margin. Bottom line, nothing suggests these are anything other than original pieces. You just have to combine that with a fact that dies were sold in the 80's. That just leaves us with a collective "oh!". Nothing more, nothing less.