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**dmytro** · 03-29-2013, 04:38 AM

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, came across this site, unfortunately swaz romoved as it's a german site

http://www.ek1-dna.de/rudolf-souval,-wien.php

could anyone date the actual hardwear? pre or post 45

**Waffenreich** · 03-29-2013, 08:09 AM

So, based on the discussion thus far, which way is the pendulum swinging????

The one I have shown with carton came back in the early summer of 1945. If these are post war then that would mean (for the cross I've shown at least) the US Army would have had to purchase a supply of these from Souval for sale out of the PX to GIs based at Camp Goulette? I am always willing to consider new ideas, but this one seems a little far-fetched. The US Army had lots of other priorities at that time, and going into many years of the occupation so I find it highly unlikely it would endorse the sale of Nazi items/souveniers out of their PXs (especially at a US camp in a town that had a sub-camp for Dachau - probably not a move that would have generated favorable PR).

I'm making this point because on the note to my source's Father Sgt Bricklin says he got the cross at Camp Goulette. He doesn't say how or where, just that it came from there. I've tried researching the history of Camp Goulette (via the internet) to get some insight into its origins prior to the US occupation with no luck. I'm now going to try a request through the US Army and if I do find something that adds to this discussion I will post it. What I'm hoping to find is that it was either a former base, garrison, or supply depot for the Wehrmacht, hence the possibility of having a supply of Souval produced EKIs as Wien is approximately 500km east of it.

As it stands right now, this piece in itself says to me these were wartime production and this isn't the first EKI by Souval of this exact type I have received in groupings associated with US veterans. This is the only one though I can pin-down with provenance saying where he got it, and from the son - when.

vr

Bob

**streptile** · 03-29-2013, 09:43 AM

I think if you read through this thread carefully you will all see that what has been claimed is simply this (in fact, I'll quote myself):

Originally posted by streptile

Every component on that type is known to have been used postwar by Souval (pin, hinge, frame, core, catch). I don't discount the possibility that there could also be wartime examples like this.

No one has claimed that this type is all postwar, and certainly no one claimed that Souval did not also make wartime crosses. That would be total nonsense and everyone here knows that.

However, the information I quoted above is also not in dispute. Later I can post plenty of photos of postwar crosses using these components (57ers, blank cores, and some swastika cores with 57er pin systems).

**Dennis J** · 03-29-2013, 10:23 AM

In my gun show days and at the first MAX show I would see Mr.Floch and Mr.Souval at the shows selling boxs of their repro and post war put togethers.I had many a good talk with both men and they told me some good stories about their war time productions(Souval)and their post war copies that they sold by the 1000's.At that very first MAX show I was given the thumbs up by many collectors and Mr.Souval that this very cross was a war time cross.The people on here that have been to these shows(back in the day) and sell and collect all know that Floch and Souval had 3 kinds of copies.Grade 3 with the L /58 (Souval)the grade 2 that was made a little better and the grade 1 that was made just like the war time pieces with war time parts(like a Atwood parts dagger).I am a helmet collector and know little about medals/badges so I ask friends that sell and collect medals and badges and they too have negative and positive things to say about these crosses.The pic. with all those crosses from the army camp is real and I have to say tells a very compelling story.

Dennis J

**Dennis J** · 03-31-2013, 09:42 AM

This thread got me to thinking...............so I too am now looking for the crosses being worn in war time pics.If and when I find them I will post.I have a close friend who worked for Life and Time magazine that has a ton of pics from WW2 and then there is the internet.I will take a look at the pics and see if I can find one.I do know one thing for sure because of the controversy over these crosses(1st and 2nd class)you have a very hard time selling them for any kind of price.I do see the e stand will let you sell these as war time crosses but they never sell unless they are priced very low.I was thinking of selling mine for $165 for first class and $65 for the 2nd class..........if I sell them.This is what tells me if these crosses or worth having as nobody wants to buy them or trust them so they are just so so low level junk to the collecting community.

Dennis J

**Bcarver** · 03-31-2013, 12:18 PM

Dennis I think you summed up the whole thread. I have talked to a few like Dietrich who believe the type I posted is real and a early production. However the science in me says that if these cross's were awarded during the war we would have seen them in German vets possessions. If we could even see a photo of a cross being worn with a Souval frame and dipping core that would be a start, really the whole story is that they made pieces long after the war with wartime stock, so as a collector I will never own another Souval piece. There is just too many angles and debate. I will stick to known wartime pieces that have no if and's and but's.

**dmytro** · 03-31-2013, 01:05 PM

So in the end the reality, cutting all the hot air, no-one can actually prove one way or the other if these are pre- or post war examples

**schönbeck** · 03-31-2013, 01:24 PM

if they could make them during war they could make them after war, there is no magic line.

I have ground dug ek1's of this type.

**streptile** · 03-31-2013, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by dmytro View Post

So in the end the reality, cutting all the hot air, no-one can actually prove one way or the other if these are pre- or post war examples

Right. That's all that has been said in this thread.

**Waffenreich** · 03-31-2013, 05:58 PM

I guess I am missing something here (taking everything I have to keep this polite and civil). Does the cross I provided not count for s... in this discussion or is it being conveniently discounted to substantiate a point that those who do not like Souval crosses want to say that because they did make them after the war that all like examples are guilt by association. This is complete bull ****!

The cross I provided pics of with the note from the guy who acquired it in a place completely outside of a logical/practical area and time where/when a Souval cross would have been acquired this close to the end of the war doesn't seem to be a key indicator that these crosses were in circulation prior to 8 May 45?

I will go back to my point in one of my prior posts - if you want to say we haven't seen one in the possesion of a German vet - what is your sample size of German vets you're basing this on Brad? From a statistical standpoint I'm willing to say there is no empirical rule here as your sample can be nothing but insignificant compared to the number of EKI recipients.

I would say this is one of the few cases where something that has been subject to conjecture, has rock solid proof to contradict the paradigm, and it is not accepted to change the popular belief. I guess you have to be a "club member" for your opinion to count around here (this is directly related to your comment dmytro - and no Trevor - that's not all that has been said in this Thread. I have provided proof and you guys don't want to accept it [see club member comment]). Sad - really sad.

I can say this - based on the number of PMs I received when I first posted this cross almost a year ago, and throughout the course of this Thread that there are a few (well respected) members of this Forum who believe these are real. Why they have not posted on this discussion is beyond me?

Happy Easter!

Originally posted by dmytro View Post

So in the end the reality, cutting all the hot air, no-one can actually prove one way or the other if these are pre- or post war examples

**Leroy** · 03-31-2013, 06:31 PM

I didn't think it would come to this, but here is one I obtained from a U.S. vet years ago. I don't have any story to go with it.

Attached Files

**Bcarver** · 03-31-2013, 06:55 PM

Leroy, yours even looks to have been worn.

**streptile** · 03-31-2013, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Waffenreich View Post

I have provided proof and you guys don't want to accept it

Not true. I for one accept it as evidence that this type was made during the war.

**Waffenreich** · 03-31-2013, 07:32 PM

Interesting. That's not how I interpreted your comments.

Nice example Leroy - thanks for posting it. This makes 4 now I know of that are U.S. vet sourced.

Originally posted by streptile View Post

Not true. I for one accept it as evidence that this type was made during the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmytro
So in the end the reality, cutting all the hot air, no-one can actually prove one way or the other if these are pre- or post war examples

Originally posted by streptile View Post

Right. That's all that has been said in this thread.

**streptile** · 03-31-2013, 07:39 PM

Hi Bob,

Originally posted by Waffenreich

Interesting. That's not how I interpreted your comments.

Let me be clearer then. I agree your cross provides some evidence that this type was probably made during the war. But I also think it's very likely that it was also made after the war, because all the parts were in use after the war as well.

So the important question about any one particular example of this exact type then becomes: how can you tell on which side of May 1945 it was made?

I think if you read through my posts in their entirety you can see that I never stated, "all crosses of this type are postwar." I simply stated, quite plainly, that I don't know (and also that, because of this uncertainty, I would not have one in my collection).

Happy Easter to you too

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