Awarded Souval EK1 Examples

[Thomas Durante]

So what you are saying is my cross is a post war piece of junk..............right.If I wanted to sell this type of cross would I put it in the Ba

Dennis, if your cross has the "1957 scrape" on it, then I think that makes it at least "questionable" as to when it was put together. I don't know crosses much at all, but I do know the type of badges that this "1957 scrape" tool mark is found on, and that is enough for me to question your cross.

Keep in mind that your cross was being questioned before I came along to this thread, I have only added and additional piece of evidence that we can look at to help determine its production timeframe.

Tom

[streptile]

Oh boy, a lot of interesting ideas and questions since I last checked into this thread just 12 hours ago.

This is very interesting, Trevor! Can you show the obverse of the postwar cross in Post 48? Perhaps this can be a link to cooperation between S&L and Souval.

First of all, here are some better photos of that cross from post 48, now front and back (attached).

Then let me just point to two threads in which this type of cross was discussed. By the end of the second thread, everyone had agreed the type was an S&L:

1. One i'd given up on!!!!
2. S&L EK1

[streptile]

I don't know why that cross might have been called a Souval in the past, but anything with the 1957 scrape must be associated with S&L in some fashion IMO.

I think you have to take into account this very clearly Souval cross -- which shares the pin, the typical Souval hinge, and the scrape mark -- when considering that statement.

Photo + cross: Grüni

[streptile]

if Bob's cross is wartime, when during the war was it made? It does not have an "L" mark (post March,1941) nor a PKZ mark (1942 forward, in all liklihood). So pre-1941? (To include not just the hinge, but the pin, of course, too.)

Of course not all makers adhered to the numbering systems. Juncker for one made crosses well into the era of the PKZ, but no one has ever found a "2" marked EK.

[Leroy]

Might be good to have the 1957 collectors to join in here together with hard core collectors of EK's (not me!).

Dennis - Don't toss your cross. (Especially if someone from Souval actually told you it was one of their wartime ones - I would think they would have known the difference and they did not have the reputation of falsely marketing their postwar pieces as wartime originals. I never dealt with them directly, but people who did have told me that Herr Umlauff was very straightfoward and honest about what was postwar and what was not. After a piece left their hands, I'm sure dealers created their own "history".)

[streptile]

Might be good to have the 1957 collectors to join in here

I agree.

[Dennis J]

Might be good to have the 1957 collectors to join in here together with hard core collectors of EK's (not me!).

Dennis - Don't toss your cross. (Especially if someone from Souval actually told you it was one of their wartime ones - I would think they would have known the difference and they did not have the reputation of falsely marketing their postwar pieces as wartime originals. I never dealt with them directly, but people who did have told me that Herr Umlauff was very straightfoward and honest about what was postwar and what was not. After a piece left their hands, I'm sure dealers created their own "history".)

No not one of Souval's dealers......... "HE" TOLD ME AT THE FIRST MAX SHOW THAT THE CROSS WAS 100% WAR TIME ORIG.Thats what I am pissed at .......so in the next hour or so this POS WILL BE DESTROYED and that's that.I have nothing else to say.

Dennis J

[deejay]

In all my years of collecting; Rudolph Souval always had this bad reputation.

This thread is the precise reason I got rid of all of my Souval EK1's years ago.. S&L is next unfortunately.

Just too much discussion

[Bcarver]

This thread really opened up a good discussion. Are deumer cross's safe or can they be controversial?

[streptile]

...in the next hour or so this POS WILL BE DESTROYED and that's that.

Hi Dennis,

Although I don't think there was any reason to destroy your cross based on what we've discussed so far, if you did, please post photos

[streptile]

S&L is next unfortunately.

Are deumer cross's safe or can they be controversial?

Maybe a subject for a different thread, but I will say this: S&L definitely made 1939 crosses after the war (I think everyone knows this), and I've always suspected Deumer of the same but I've never really found any evidence (though I'm always looking....) But the nice thing about these two makers is that there are plenty of types that are, in my view, beyond reproach (known originals).

Here is a postwar S&L with the "Souval" pin and hinge, and the "57 scrape":

[Nigel N]

Very interesting thread, a lot of what has been said here, is already quite well known in the 57 collecting circles, and as a collector of 57 and postwar EK's, and also a former collector of TR EK's, i can only echo what Trevor has already said!
While there is surely little doubt that Souval made EK's during the war, it does appear to be true, that the parts used on those wartime pieces, were also used in their postwar production, meaning IMO it is, at the moment, probably impossible to say with 100% accuracy, exactly when many Souval EK's were actually produced!!
The scrape mark on the coke-bottle pins, is found on Souval postwar Swaz cored copies, blank core EK's for Austrian veterans, and on the earliest S&L postwar EK1 's, in 57/Imperial & TR copy styles!!
When comparing the pieces i have, the only difference between S&L coke-bottle pins and Souval's, is that the Souval's are magnetic, and the S&L's are not!! Otherwise, same style of pin and same scrape marks!!
-Nigel

[AUSGANG]

Here is a wartime Souval that was reversed and converted to an EK1 for mine clearance after the war. No reason for the seller to lie about it, they practically gave it to me... I have several denazified Souvals (which I won't post here unless requested) and I don't see any reason that someone would denazify an award just to make it sell for less...

[Waffenreich]

I have to say this discussion on these crosses and the outstanding photos provided to show the signature tool marks has been superb. Thank you to all who have contributed

Just to be clear Tom - there is no way the cross I have could have been put together in 1946 using leftover wartime hardware unless it was done by Sgt Bricklin in his garage in PA. This cross was sent back to the US no later than July 1945. The gentleman I bought it from said his Father received it in the early summer of '45 (so let's say July). I'm half tempted to contact the guy and ask him for more information, but I know I'll be met with a "cross could be post-war, are you out of your mind?" type of response. I've gone through that a number of times when trying to tell a vet's family member that something is a repro.

Lastly - isn't this tool mark the same that's found on Anti-Partisan Badges and meant to be a sign of originality (or is that a different tool mark - sure looks the same to me?)

Hi Gentry,

I think this is a mute question, becuase the hinge on Bob's Cross is a typical wartime hinge. It is not like the hinges we see on 1957er badges.

Just to be clear, Bob's cross does not have the 1957 scrape and the hinge looks like a typical, wartime barrel hinge. I would have no problem calling his cross a wartime cross based on the reverse hardware. With that said, I have no idea when it was made. Could be 1941. Or it could be 1946 using leftover wartime hardware. All I would be comfortable saying for sure at this point is that the hardware looks wartime.

Tom

[Leroy]

Here is a postwar S&L with the "Souval" pin and hinge, and the "57 scrape":

Trevor - I took the liberty of darkening and enlarging the photo a bit so I could better see the "57 scrape". Candidly, it doesn't look to me like the same mark as on the Souval.