New arrivals from the bombed Zimmermann factory

[Flemming]

This 21 marked "Monday morning set...?" also shows a thick split-line similar to the two-sided example from this thread.

Robert

But the Dots or Dimpels on the sword handle do not match!?!
Or are you just saying that there's a similar flaw on both set?

/Flemming

[Robert T.]

But the Dots or Dimpels on the sword handle do not match!?!
Or are you just saying that there's a similar flaw on both set?

/Flemming

I think that the dots are similar but I wanted to show the thick untrimmed border (see red circles).

[streptile]

Can someone help me understand why it is surprising to find swords on a set of "21" oaks?

Just a brief summary of the issue and the timeline as we currently know it, for those of us (i.e., me) who don't know this info.

[Leroy]

What's the rat Leroy's ?...this is getting confusing...can you recap where we are ?

Chris - Doing what I do for a profession has, regretably, turned me into a suspicious and cynical bastard (a state compounded by this hobby).

We have flans (or planchets, or whatever), be they trial strikes or intended for some other purpose, all allegedly found in the wreckage of Zimmermann, which clearly "track" the appearance of "Godet" Oakleaves and Swords (although they may be slightly "off"). The swords may well be those originally having a genesis with the FO, but the counterpart oakleaves do not match in basic design (or outline) any Oakleaves produced (either Imperial or TR) except for "Godet" TR pieces.We also have a "sheared set" of possible "Godet" O&S, marked '21' allegedly found with the other items.

Dietrich says that the swords and oakleaf stampings we are seeing as alleged parts of the Zimmermann find have nothing to do with true "Godet" Oakleaves and Swords. He has not commented directly on the "sheared set" of Oakleaves and Swords marked 21, also allegedly part of the Zimmerman find. There is, to me at least, some degree of confusion and disagreement regarding the true nature of the construction and finishing not only of the "Swords" component of genuine "Godet" O&S, but also the swords used on the FO (if these flans were in fact intended just for the FO), an interesting parallel.

To me (and maybe I'm just off base on this one) there is no logical reason for us to be seeing what we are seeing other than that these pieces are connected in some way to the devices we know as "Godet Oakleaves and Swords". If they are not so connected, then the inescapable conclusion is that there has either been an incredible coincidence (which I personally almost never believe in with this hobby) OR they are "plants" with genuine Zimmermann debris to lend credibility to their existence. The photo posted by Robert of a set of purported "Godet" O&S attached to a Zimmermann RK, showing the swords to seemingly have construction characteristics which appear the same as the disputed swords flans shown here, was the final straw for me. Either these pieces are legitimately connected to "Godet Oakleaves and Swords" OR someone is making Oakleaves and Swords sets, telling us that they are Godet, and planting components with legitimate Zimmerman debris to give the scam credibility.

[Flemming]

I think that the dots are similar but I wanted to show the thick untrimmed border (see red circles).

I have been starring at the swords again, and I have to agree. They seems to match pretty good, the dots.
And also I can see what you mean about the untrimmed border.

/Flemming

[Robert T.]

I tried to find the link.... but could not... it was copied from WAF two days ago.

The set was attached to a Zimmermann KC ???

Robert

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...rds+zimmermann

Gentry,

Look at the picture on post *12..... At the edge of the Oakleaves, the light reflection shows a double thickness of material... or am I seeing things?

Robert

[Leroy]

I don't know if it is the light, but I see what you mean. Strange that the contrast stays so evenly consistant along the entire side. May be explainable, though. Could be the "step" in the striking process.

[Robert T.]

I don't know if it is the light, but I see what you mean. Strange that the contrast stays so evenly consistant along the entire side. May be explainable, though. Could be the "step" in the striking process.

If the Oakleaves edge thickness is 3-4 mm , the darker material on the picture would be about 1 mm.

The Oakleaves shaped planchet from the other thread is (as per Dietrich) about 1 mm thick.

Was the Oakleaves shaped planchet used as a "backing plate" on this Set?

Robert

[Leroy]

Robert - I can't imagine a reason to do that, unless it would be some type of electroforming, but I don't believe that process works in that way. Much too complicated an explanation for me. I think much more likely just to be a natural result of forming and finishing.

[Robert T.]

Robert - I can't imagine a reason to do that, unless it would be some type of electroforming, but I don't believe that process works in that way. Much too complicated an explanation for me. I think much more likely just to be a natural result of forming and finishing.

Hi Gentry,
Thank you for posting your opinion.

Cheers,
Robert

[ChrisJ]

Thanks for the summary Leroy !

The dirty tricks team have touched many areas, so I commend your caution.

I've never noticed this backing plate effect on Oakleaves. Is it just the light or the effects of some chemical reaction... Are these Oakleaves hollow one wonders, and if this really was a backplate what was it covering (another makers mark ? Or a 925 mark? ). Now I'm genuinely puzzled ! As you say Leroy, it begins to smell.

The loop in the sheared set looks okay. But maybe some rouge FO swords were added to a genuine relic.

[Leroy]

Take one to a local dentist and x-ray it.

Nice second photo, Robert.....

[Flemming]

Hi Gentry,
Thank you for posting your opinion.

Cheers,
Robert

In the photo you shhow here, it is rather easy to see the differences of the two "layer"...but strange indeed.

/Flemming

[ChrisJ]

Take one to a local dentist and x-ray it.

Nice second photo, Robert.....

Good idea....but I don't have one like that. The second set shows the same feature...any ideas what we are seeing Robert ?

[Robert T.]

Good idea....but I don't have one like that. The second set shows the same feature...any ideas what we are seeing Robert ?

A backing plate....???