New arrivals from the bombed Zimmermann factory

[Peter J.]

Trewor, I for one would never suggest that DAO's were never made in bronze, I wasn't there so how would I know? Do I find it plausible? Not really, especially not based on the word of a German dealer.

The existing reference litterature as well as the info on the net is rather contradictive to say the least, but it seems almost impossible to get collectors interested in discussing this topic in an analytic way i.g. how did you manage to find out the metal composition of your nicely enamelled and gilded bronze version without ruining the cross and more importantly, when did you first purchase it?

Thies offered a Golden Grand Cross DAO in 2011, also a National Price of Art and Science. I know that Bill Stump had his eyes on the latter, but for some reasons he believed it was a fake. Now in 2015 they once again come up with a Golden Grand Cross DAO. If you seriously belive they have the same design, well that has to be on you, I don't think so. It's not what has been said over time about the Golden Grand Cross, but more importantly what hasn't!

cheers
Peter

[streptile]

Thies offered a Golden Grand Cross DAO in 2011... Now in 2015 they once again come up with a Golden Grand Cross DAO. If you seriously belive they have the same design, well that has to be on you, I don't think so.

Hi Peter,

Do I understand correctly that you believe these two crosses do not have the same design? Or have I misunderstood?

[Peter J.]

Trevor, I think there are minor differences in the shape of the heads, which of course can be due to hand-finishing or photo quality. But this is the problem I'm trying to illuminate i.e. what other images can I compare it with? The only other I'm aware of is the Stump photo in Angolia's book. At least that one appears to have the typical Godet shape on the eagles. Not even Detlev had these crosses illustrated. They are in fact included in Forman's book, but the images aren't good enough in order to compare.

Do I understand correctly that you believe your cross was 100% in bronze? Or have I misunderstood?

cheers
Peter

[marisca lrommel]

OK, I'm no DAO expert. Mine looked okay to me, but I've sold it on already, to someone at a show, so I can't check it anymore.

Just one question: How do you know there were no bronze-gilt DAOs?

1-Because I've seen and had a multitude of versions in hand and never saw one.

1-Because no review or regulation refers to it.

1-Because there is no evidence for that. Contribute images of DAO's bronze that are real according to you and will keep you for consideration.
For the time being, until anyone proves otherwise not exist DAO in bronze except Medal

[marisca lrommel]

Thies 44 and Thies 58 are exactly the same in design. The only thing that changes is the brightness and detail of a photograph and another but, in my opinion, are exactly the same in design

[streptile]

Do I understand correctly that you believe your cross was 100% in bronze? Or have I misunderstood?

Heh heh Nope, you got it right.

Yes, it was bronze gilt. As you know, the PLM, RAO, KO, HOH and other high Prussian decorations were made in enamels and gold (until 1916, and after only as luxury private purchase pieces), silver gilt (after 1916) and bronze gilt (after 1918). Having held many of these over the years, I am very familiar with the feel and weight of the different metals, and the way the gilding wears over time on silver vs. bronze. When I got this DAO (about three years ago) I was hoping it was an unmarked silver gilt piece, but in-hand it was very clearly bronze gilt. Not realizing it might be rare, I sold it at the next SOS.

[Peter J.]

Thanks Trevor, that's the kind of elaborated answer I wish I saw more often Given your account about a bronze version of the 5.Klasse and the illustrations of a 3.Klasse, I can only presume these crosses were actually produced. The logical additional question would be, when? So far we've traced it 3 years back, any others that want to share their experiences?

cheers
Peter

[streptile]

1-Because I've seen and had a multitude of versions in hand and never saw one.

Well, just because you've never seen one doesn't mean they don't exist. I mean that as nicely as I can say it. But, really, a lot of EKs exist that I have never seen or had in-hand. So this is no reason in my book.

2-Because no review or regulation refers to it.

OK, fair enough.

3-Because there is no evidence for that.

This is also not true. I've shown a bronze-gilt DAO, and you yourself showed a bronze blank from the factory that produced them! That's very compelling evidence as far as I'm concerned.

So we are left with this as a reason:

There is no paper trail (no regulation or document) that refers to bronze-gilt DAOs.

Fair enough, let's see what develops over time.

[marisca lrommel]

Well, just because you've never seen one doesn't mean they don't exist. I mean that as nicely as I can say it. But, really, a lot of EKs exist that I have never seen or had in-hand. So this is no reason in my book.

I think, have come to produce and distribute DAO's bronze, some would have been as evidence and would have reached our hands... among so many collectors of militaria that exist in the world, yet there is no one who has had a copy made in bronze with silver plated who submitted it by putting in evidence that this was so.

This is also not true. I've shown a bronze-gilt DAO, and you yourself showed a bronze blank from the factory that produced them! That's very compelling evidence as far as I'm concerned.

So we are left with this as a reason:

There is no paper trail (no regulation or document) that refers to bronze-gilt DAOs.

Fair enough, let's see what develops over time.

The fact that I have a unfinished and not distributed copy of one made of bronze DAO does not indicate that such decorations in that material were producing at that time since, among other evidence, they would have been more exemplary unfinished in the same or other factories of Zimmerman.

I think my copy can be a test whose objective was to present to compete and win the consent of the Reich Chancellery for the subsequent manufacturing with authorization of the order of the German Eagle, or evidence that made new factory workers/jewellers to demonstrate its expertise making decorations... and what better way to try making one of the most illustrious awards of the Third Reich?

But as I always say... it is just my opinion.

[streptile]

I think, have come to produce and distribute DAO's bronze, some would have been as evidence and would have reached our hands...

What more evidence do we need? As I mentioned above, I myself owned a nice bronze-gilt piece, and here is another.

Barry Turk, who owns eMedals, is actually a jeweler, and he is a true expert at identifying metals. Here's the bronze-gilt DAO:

.

[marisca lrommel]

It is possible that I am wrong in this respect. Until now, only I knew the DAO's manufactured by GODET and DESCHLER but I was unaware that ZIMMERMAN got them to manufacture bronze... If this was so, the unfinished prototype I have is actually a 3Rd Eagle Order unfinished rescued from the workshops of Zimmerman's bombed by the allies.

My apologies

[marisca lrommel]

I've been looking at the page emedals where it appears the prototype in bronze that I bought, and as emedals in the description says:

"An unfinished example of breast cross in bronze, 45x51mm, eagles hand-soldered individually; from the Zimmermann bombed out factory; I have never seen finished-enameled cross in bronze, so this may be a prototype or a mid-War proposed production that never materialized."

I think that some Eagles hand soldered with Tin could never withstand the temperature necessary for glazing the cross... therefore it is possible to not come to be the cross of the order of the Eagle German manufactured with bronze, enamels and gold bathroom back... I am inclined to a prototype manufactured by zimmerman for a purpose not discovered or not documented.

The link:

http://www.emedals.com/collectors-ga...-by-zimmermann

[Peter J.]

What more evidence do we need? As I mentioned above, I myself owned a nice bronze-gilt piece, and here is another.

Barry Turk, who owns eMedals, is actually a jeweler, and he is a true expert at identifying metals. Here's the bronze-gilt DAO:

.

These were words expressed by mr Turk at the time he offered the unfinished bronze cross and I quote:

"German Eagle Order by Zimmermann
An unfinished example of breast cross in bronze, 45x51mm, eagles hand-soldered individually; from the Zimmermann bombed out factory; I have never seen finished-enameled cross in bronze, so this may be a prototype or a mid-War proposed production that never materialized."


Today I checked his site and guess what, now he has 6 different fully intact Zimmermann DAO crosses for sale. And they are supposed to have been found in which rubble? After all, a first address for their location was given, then when a second location was suggested and viola, the thread died! Maybe a third location was found


cheers
Peter

[Ludwig]

These were words expressed by mr Turk at the time he offered the unfinished bronze cross and I quote:

"German Eagle Order by Zimmermann
An unfinished example of breast cross in bronze, 45x51mm, eagles hand-soldered individually; from the Zimmermann bombed out factory; I have never seen finished-enameled cross in bronze, so this may be a prototype or a mid-War proposed production that never materialized."


Today I checked his site and guess what, now he has 6 different fully intact Zimmermann DAO crosses for sale. And they are supposed to have been found in which rubble? After all, a first address for their location was given, then when a second location was suggested and viola, the thread died! Maybe a third location was found


cheers
Peter

[marisca lrommel]

This piece from the same factory Zimmerman I have in my collection.

Was the order of the German Eagle manufactured only by GODET as only manufacturer authorised... then... who made this piece at the burned factory of Zimmermann?

The order of the German Eagle 3rd class was being manufactured in silver, however this other is made in copper or bronze...



Does Zimmermann helped Gore in the production of orders of the Eagle?

Is it a prototype?

It is a piece of evidence to be presented to a contest in order to obtain approval for their manufacture?... I'm afraid we'll never know: Uhoh2 Confused:

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