New arrivals from the bombed Zimmermann factory

[Leroy]

Trevor - Are the flans (I love the terms used) in that old thread thinner than the ones shown here? I see from reading there that they were considered too thin to be useful for the Oakleaves.

P.S. I hope illustrations are identified by source, else we (or at least I) will lose track of what is being shown. Are measurements available for each piece (height, width, thickness)?

[streptile]

Trevor - Are the flans (I love the terms used) in that old thread thinner than the ones shown here? I see from reading there that they were considered too thin to be useful for the Oakleaves.

I'm not sure how thick the sword flans from either lot were, but I'm also not sure it matters.

Dietrich noted that the oakleaf flans or planchets were too thin for use on the oakleaves to the 1939 Knights Cross of the Iron Cross. I'm not sure he said anything about the flans for the swords, but unless someone dissents here, I think we all agree that these sword flans were not used for making swords to the oakleaves for the 1939 Knights Cross of the Iron Cross, so I think the issue is somewhat moot.

Since there seem to be cuttings from Imperial decorations both in Wotan's lot (sword flans) and in Klaus' lot (sword flans), and since the fleamarket vendor who sold Wotan his flans "had also some half-finished products of Prussian decorations" (now quoting Dietrich), I think it's safe and reasonable to assume that the lots were mixed TR and Imperial-era stuff.

So... whew! Where does that leave us? The sword flans are probably for Würrtemberg orders, and the oakleaf punches may very well be for some Imperial oakleaves, which were used by many decorations, not least the Red Eagle Order:


(medalnet.net)

The vast majority of Imperial-era oakleaves (and there were many designs; you can see a bunch here) were made of thin sheet gold, silver or base metal in the neighborhood of 1mm thick:


(medalnet.net)

How thick were the oakleaf punches Dietrich examined?

The punching waste is too thin ( ~ 1.0 mm) for any substantial oakleaves.

...so Dietrich was correct. Too thin for oakleaves to the 1939 Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, but perhaps not too thin for some very late (WWII-era) restrikes of Prussian oakleaves.

Anyway, that's how I see it as of now.



.

[Leroy]

This is rapidly becoming complicated and confusing. Here, on top, is the "Oakleaf" cutout used as a primary illustration from the older thread. It is misleading because this is the reverse side and so the outline is backwards. Below it is another cutout, also from the older thread, which I have "pulled from the pile" and enlarged. This cutout shows the correct obverse side.

Neither matches the outline of any Imperial set of Oakleaves I'm familair with (but I stand to be corrected).

[Leroy]

And here is the "correct cutout" from that older thread and the top of a "clipped Oakleaf" from our current thread.

[Leroy]

And, finally, here is that "clipped Oakleaf" from our current thread compared to a real set of Oakleaves from "Godet".

So...are these all "common source" items and were the pieces from the older thread being used to make at least "trial strikes" of "Godet" Oakleaves and Swords?

[streptile]

So...are these all "common source" items and were the pieces from the older thread being used to make at least "trial strikes" of "Godet" Oakleaves and Swords?

Yes, I see what you mean. The oakleaf cutout matches pretty well to the RK oakleaf shape. I suppose it's possible that the FO swords and some thin-sheet oakleaves were being used to mock-up some OLS sets as a trial or test. Is that sort of what you're thinking Gentry?

These piles of rubble were supposedly huge. Someone could have made the same mistake many of us did: assumed the sword flans were for the 1939 OLS sets, and bought them up along with the oakleaf cutouts and "created" a group where none naturally existed.

I guess I personally don't see why these single-sided sword planchets have to be related to the 1939 OLS at all, in any way.

[Leroy]

Trevor, you may be correct and these swords could have nothing to do with the combined set of an "Oakleaves and Swords" device as we know it, beyond wishful thinking by someone.

On the other hand, they could. For what other reason would we see a striking of what appears to be an "Oakleaf" of the wartime design on metal which is apparently of the same thickness (or thinness) as the "swords" flans striking, if not as "trial" strikings of both? It is a curious coincidence and the mere presence of the "Oakleaf" strikings at all (if these in fact are all from the Zimmermann rubble) says something about this. The presence of both, in some apparent quantity, is extraordinarily coincidental (regardless of how many piles there were and what might be created through "mix and match").

I think you have demonstrated very well, through your markings comparisons, that Zimmermann was the supplier to Godet for many, many things. Why not these, too?

What is the thickness of the swords on the FO compared to the thickness of the swords on the "Godet" Oakleaves and Swords?

Just pondering out loud.....

[streptile]

I think you have demonstrated very well, through your markings comparisons, that Zimmermann was the supplier to Godet for many, many things. Why not these, too?

Oh, I do believe that Zimmermann supplied Godet with all their OL and OLS sets. I've believed this for a long time, based on the marks, the Zimmermann fire lots, and what I believe about Gebr. Godet's business model.

I'm just not yet convinced that the sword planchets have anything to do with them. But I see your point... why not spitball some ideas? Doesn't hurt.

[Leroy]

And that's all this is ...an exchange of ideas.

We are concentrating on uniface strikings, but tend to keep overlooking this one planchet, where the striking is front and back.

Go back to that older thread and read Tony's (Tiger1's) comments.

[Leroy]

And while you in that older thread, remember Eric's (Erickn's) photo (an unusual angle not often seen) of his L/50 set.

[streptile]

We are concentrating on uniface strikings, but tend to keep overlooking this one planchet, where the striking is front and back.

I get the feeling that is two halves joined, and partially trimmed. In my opinion, partly prepped FO swords.

Klaus, can you clarify for us please?

[Leroy]

I get the feeling that is two halves joined, and partially trimmed. In my opinion, partly prepped FO swords.

May be so, but you would have to have them in hand (as Klaus does) and use really good magnification to tell for sure. Joining two planchets? Again, read Tony's comments in the older thread about solder. I'd like to see photos.

All for tonight. Early day tomorrow.

[streptile]

More.

[Robert T.]

I'm a bit late... but sometimes a picture doesn't need any explanations...

[Robert T.]

Hi Trevor,

I believe that what you are showing us could be a casting flash or casting seam….


Casting seam

"A thin irregular ridge of metal on the outer face of a casting, resulting from seepage of the molten metal into the joint between the separate components of the mould used in its manufacture. During the final cleaning and finishing of a cast object the jet and flash are usually knocked off and filed smooth."




The "planchet" shown below seems to show several air bubbles…. It could be a casting test from one half of the mold...?

Robert