New arrivals from the bombed Zimmermann factory

[Rich G]

No one is twisting your arm Rich.

For me, there is no doubt that FLL produced these LW badges, and I am not alone by any stretch, just take a look at any thread where these are discussed. All these collectors are also convinced, thanks to the many threads where the forensic evidence was laid out supporting the connection to FLL.

In much the same way as this "S&L" Knights Cross. It is only marked "800", so is this cross by an unknown maker?

Ofcourse not, it is firmly linked to S&L thanks to the same forensic analysis that was used to connect FLL.

Tom

Tom

If that's the best example you can come up to support your FLL theory then it's even weaker than I thought.

S&L are a documented RK maker, their crosses are found in S&L marked cartons, the (800 4) frames can be connected to the 800 only frames. There is undisputed proof whereas yours is just a theory based on a mass produced hinge and catch. That's just not enough.



Rich

[ChrisJ]

Am I missing something here or s this thread about the possible Zimmerman catch Oaks & Swords ?

Tom, you clearly are defending speculation on FLL Badges, thats fine but the subject has no place here....especially when you come out against speculation of the pieces in question in this thread

[Thomas Durante]

If that's the best example you can come up to support your FLL theory then it's even weaker than I thought.

S&L are a documented RK maker, their crosses are found in S&L marked cartons, the (800 4) frames can be connected to the 800 only frames. There is undisputed proof whereas yours is just a theory based on a mass produced hinge and catch. That's just not enough.

Rich, it is not my theory, it was Frank Heukemes', which he introduced in 2005. Over the years, it has been expanded on and substantiated by many other discoveries. I just happen to agree with him, along with almost every other collector that I know. But don't take my word for it, here is just one recent thread I found where one of these were discussed:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=635423

Every collector that posted states its an FLL, in their opinion. Are they all parrots? Ofcourse not, they are all experienced collectors that have done their own research and concluded that the evidence is strong enough that FLL is the maker of these. If there is not enough evidence to satisfy your curiosity, then I respect that. But if we had to wait for written, undisputible verification for each connection we make, the hobby and our knowledge would never progress.

And YES, the S&L Type "A" RK I show is a PERFECT example of this. Show me a Type A marked for S&L, and I will agree with your position! For all we know, Wissmann supplied similar dies to two different companies (one die went to an Unknown Firm that made the Type A crosses, and the other die went to S&L who made the Type B crosses).

Tom

p.s. sorry to hijack your thread Chris, but it is all relevant to the discussion IMO. FLL as a maker of the LW badges is not speculation due to the huge amount of evidence provided over the years. These "Zimmermann O & S" are a different issue, but pending further evidence I would have no problem believing that Zimmermann was involved in O & S production (it certainly looks that way, especially if Dietrich's questions can be answered). I can respect that some collectors will never be convinced of the FLL connection, but eventually everyone has to decide for themselves if they believe in the science....or continue to call evolution "just a theory".

Tom

[Robert T.]

Okay. But for me they are close enough to take a second look.

Regards
Chris

A comparison using the existing pictures and DM book....

Robert

[Leroy]

And, just for completeness (on the bottom), an L/50 set.

[Robert T.]

And, just for completeness (on the bottom), an L/50 set.

And, just for completeness.... The swords from the unfinished planchet on the L/50.

[Leroy]

I don't know if you do graphics for a living, Robert, but if not, you should!

P.S. I wonder what these would look like after they had been "finished" by hand?

[Robert T.]

I don't know if you do graphics for a living, Robert, but if not, you should!

I've been using: "Microsoft Digital Image Standard 2006 Editor".... and some spare time....

Robert

[Thomas Durante]

Well done Robert, very helpful to see these side by side.

Nearly identical, very very close. Are they close enough to say they are the same, save hand finishing? Or do you guys see a major difference in the two designs to say they were made with 2 different dies?

Tom

[Leroy]

I see lateral lines on the crossguards on the "Godet" set which may or may not be on the other sets (can't tell from the photos).

[Thomas Durante]

I see lateral lines on the crossguards on the "Godet" set which may or may not be on the other sets (can't tell from the photos).

Yes.

And also the other set seems to have a wider crossguards compared to the Godet set.

Tom

[Leroy]

And also the other set seems to have a wider crossguards compared to the Godet set.
Tom

I believe that's from hand-finishing. I have seen this on S&L Swords sets from the same die. This is hard to explain, but the finishing by and of itself creates a new edge, as the metal is "shaved". "L" becomes "L". Look at the interior, not exterior, dimensions.

[Thomas Durante]

Leroy, I understand perfectly what you are saying. But looking at just the inner edges of the crossguards, they still look different sizes to me (unless the picture is perhaps scaled differently since it was Photoshoped/microsoft edited??)

The left side looks pretty close, but the bottom right side of each set look to have a pretty big difference in the inner widths (where my arrows are).

Tom

[Leroy]

I'm prepared to be wrong, of course, but I still think that even minute differences in scale, angle and light change our perceptions. Again, I base this on what I have actually seen on S&L sets from the same die.

I'm not saying that these sword sets are from the same die as the swords we see on "Godet", because we have no precise, in-hand-measurements, and we are still lacking critical source information, but I think they could be (or at least from "sister dies") given what I have seen with hand-finishing elsewhere.

[Thomas Durante]

One last point for tonight, if you look at the middle Berry on the Godet set, it encroaches a good bit into the edge of the crossguard, whereas on the other set it doesn't appear to touch the crossguard edge at all.

But either way, very minute differences and I would agree that these are close enough to Godet to suggest sister dies.

Tom