unmagnetic L/59

[Douglas 5]

Same oppinion here , .... and pointed out in my post above - just an attempt of these fakers to improve on past mistakes . Other awards show the same from time to time ... A new generation of fakes !
There actualy is a rare early tombak core Rettenmaier EK1 I am guessing they tried mimicking with Bens unm Rettenmaier .

Douglas

[5tefan]

But here is the big problem:

Neither Rettenmaier or Mayer ever used this frame or this core during the war that we have seen, except (supposedly) on this type.
Re: What if they use a 2nd tier part (frame) for the early EK1 and Rettenmaier & B.H.M. use only parts from this 2nd tier to assemble the first crosses?
If you compare to the early T-frame, all maker change there frame to the defenitive late war frame!

But the makers of the 333 fakes did use this frame and core.
Re: I know now 3 different frames types, which was used for the EK2 333 fake!
Why should a faker change 3 times the frame types?

So what we have here are some EKs that use the same core and frame as the 333 fake, but not the same frame and core as the makers they look like, or are marked for. Re: The core of the EK2 fakes is FLAT and the EK1 core is NOT FLAT!!!!

I think to argue from these facts that these are legitimate wartime variants is next to impossible. Re: I don't think that early types are post war EK1!
re
Combined with the fact that these are showing up in numbers only recently, I don't know how you can have confidence in them. Re: I have tried more and more to give arguments via pictures and some explantation. I wondering that I'm the only one who does not think, that these EK1 are fakes.

[VonPeter]

Got damn it!
I´ve been wating for the answers here, i have completely missed this thread and dident know the discussion continued here instead.
I thought it was strange that nothing had happens over there for several weeks.

But nice and interesting research, nice job everyone. And i see that you finally got the cross from Sweden Stefan.

P.S. I am now subscribing to this thread so i wont lose you again.

[Douglas 5]

If interested I have posted in a seperate thread an original early tombac core unmarked Rettenmaier EK1.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=543880

Regards, Douglas

[5tefan]

According to the posted EK1 from Douglas 5 on this link.

Maybe this picture could help

[Douglas 5]

The above picture will not help .... it had to be corrected .

Regards Douglas

[5tefan]

The above picture will not help .... it had to be corrected .

Regards Douglas

I don't agree! The frame design No.4 match more than No.2 to the EK2 333 fakes!

Did you think about, that the 333 faker use original frames?

Additional to that, I don't think that the 333 faker made any EK1!!!

If the faker have the chance to build EK2 and EK1, he would concentrate only on EK1, due to the profit! And that the 333 faker use more than 3 different original Pin-Setup incl. maker marks does not make any sense! I think you are on the wrong road!

The core number design is 100% the same like Ben's EK1. It look only a bit different, due to you made a Foto from a wrong DigiCam position and wrong direction

I to think that your EK1 is original and Ben's EK1 is "A new generation of fakes" it's like we are in the Kindergarten.

Both EK1 (No.2 & No.4) are in my point of view 100% original! And it's funny that I'm the only one who try to defend this cross!

"exspression " T- frame " ... makes me think of Steak !" I like T-bone-steakes
Re: it's not only the lying T all other 3 corners match as well ;-)
I call the Deschler frame = V-frame.

[ben bijker]

Stefan, I've been rather busy and I am very tired, that is why I haven't responded so far.
Just before dinner I looked at the lat post by Douglas and I fully agree with you.
Number 2 is quite similar to number 4, but not similar to the 333 fakes.

I too find it hard to believe that the fakers use different , original pin-systems in such small numbers.

Maybe the 333 fakes were made from left-over or rejected frames, that is the same way the fake L/16 ek1 were made ( according to a seller taht had dozends of these fakes and offered them to his " incrowd" at 80 Euro a piece, KC's at 800 a piece).
Those post-war left-overs have a core with a very flat date, just like the 333 fakes.
Which the L59 hasn't.....

@ Trevor: I got my L/18 and the non-magnetic L59 over 2 years apart.
So far I have seen 2 of both, I wouldn't call that "showing up in numbers" like, for instance, the latvian fake.

ben

[Douglas 5]

Stefan : your post 52 does not make sense .... ' my cross matches more a 333 ... and then later it is original ?
If Bens unmarked L/59 is original -- so you are saying all 333 frames with the same beading flaw are original ?
Even if these flawed frames were ware time made -> war time never used 'rejects' off of original dies from whatever maker .... used and assembled after the war ... they are still fakes . .. regardless of all the original other parts .

Douglas

[ben bijker]

[quote=Douglas 5;
If Bens unmarked L/59 is original -- so you are saying all 333 frames with the same beading flaw are original ?

Douglas[/quote]
No, the 333 fakes may be made from original frames, which doesn't make them wartime originals.
They have a fake core.

How many crosses with flaws have been made during the war?
Don't forget that we blow up pictures to the absurd, I don't think everything was checked with a microscope during the war.
The beading flaws on round 3 crosses are very obvious, and still they were awarded.
I know, that was pre-LdO, but still very clearly visible.

Both L/18 and L59 (as I still call it) come from a very reliable source, and have been in other collections for years.
Add to that the very well made marks 9in case of fakes the original hardware and the small numbers in which they appear, and there goes the post-war theory (IMO)

[Douglas 5]

Ben :
A few questions if I may ask about your unmarked L59 . Does it have the corner chip as shown in The EK book ?
As you have that cross ... the beading is very flat ..... from a worn die .... or flat from wearing down due to use, polishing ... etc ??
From my understanding brass cores are only on early crosses .... that is why I ask about the flat beading ... a frame-core combination that should not be . Looks like an early core with a late frame ? .... is it ??
It is to me not logical/possible that any maker would have any piles of faulty frames - with the material shortage that existed later in the war anything not used was recycled/melted down - just to sell off post war .
Only senario for me is that the original worn-out die was sold post war -- now recent restaration attempted and is being used today .

I have 3 Rettenmaier crosses . The L/59 marked one shows some die ware ... but nowhere close to yours ? My tombac core EK1 has mint crisp beading .

Regards, Douglas

[ben bijker]

Douglas, I respect your dedication to the discussion, but it seems that you avoid answers by posting new questions?????

[streptile]

@ Trevor: I got my L/18 and the non-magnetic L59 over 2 years apart. So far I have seen 2 of both, I wouldn't call that "showing up in numbers" like, for instance, the latvian fake.

Hi Ben,

Fair enough. The first one I saw was inscribed by Dönitz and shown in The Iron Time, which I think was published in 1998. Then yours, a few years apart. Michael WVDParis used to own one. So I guess these are not appearing in numbers recently, you're right. They're just suddenly being discussed, which gives that impression.

That said, I am still doubtful about them, but the truth is I just don't know what to make of them. I suppose it is possible that the 333 fake used original dies or leftover components, and that these are originals made from those same parts. But I still have a difficult time accepting that B.H. Mayer made just a few crosses with a frame and a core totally different from their traditional frame and core.

I hope that in the future some more information will become available about this type, and we can close the book one way or the other.

[Douglas 5]

Ben : I am not avoiding your answers in any way and will reduce questions to a minimum .
I just do not see the dies matching . This would mean we have 2 Rettenmaier dies .

Douglas

[5tefan]

I didn't need to compare this frame to see that this is a different frame