First "Honest" Sale Of A K&Q Ritterkreuz?

[Luftm40]

Yes, but it's not what only what someone writes in a book ... but what they DON'T write that's just as important. Seems like many around here (yourself included) either misread or go by what others THINK he wrote ...

Read twice, criticize once ....

Yes, and extreme arrogance is also an issue in these threads my friend, on many levels. I'm not sure how you know what I have read or not read, nor do I understand your sentiment that reading something also means you must AGREE w/ it. Like I said, the herd mentality....

[Darrell]

Yes, and extreme arrogance is also an issue in these threads my friend, on many levels. I'm not sure how you know what I have read or not read, nor do I understand your sentiment that reading something also means you must AGREE w/ it. Like I said, the herd mentality....

???

What I read in Post # 33

This is simply the case of Dietrich's book causing the market to fall apart for these, and dealers trying to dump them...which is a sad state of affairs.

I agree I DON'T know what you have read ... but you obviously stated that for some reason. Not sure where that come from but pretty strong words that are unfounded.

[Koen P]

K&q

I don't know if it's of any use concerning this thread.
I have often read that the K&Q firm closed in the '70-ies or early 80-ies.

In fact it closed in mid december 1977.
At that time 49 people were still at work in the firm.

So we can presume that all the material and machinery (dies??) that was left in the factory was sold somewhere in 1978...

Now I just wonder, if we would presume dies and other KC related material were then sold, why the K&Q crosses only emerged in much larger amounts then before in the last 10-15 years? And that they not already 'flooded' the market in the early 80-ies?

It's just a consideration
Maybe much more experienced collectors than me, can give their view on this.

Koen

[Leroy]

I wonder if the date of closing has any connection to Weitze's specific statement that this cross was a reproduction from the 1980's (instead of the '90's, etc.)?

[Leroy]

I'm just trying to think of a likely scenario for K&Q crosses.

As Dietrich and others noted, these were most certainly awarded during the war. There is ample proof of that. It would appear that the very last crosses to be awarded had certain "flaws".

If, when the company's assets were sold, there were remaining stocks of completed crosses, parts, dies and tooling, what would we see?

First, completed and unissued crosses, even if there were only 100 (perhaps for an order that was never delivered) would effectively "supply" the market for many years, especially given the "re-cycling" of these as they are sold and re-sold. It is unlikely that whoever might have acquired these would have "dumped" them all at once. This would explain the strange and frequent inclusion in "groups' of mint K&Q crosses which did not match the "timeline" for production and award. Perfectly real and nice crosses, but wrong for most groups.

Second, assuming both original dies and tooling, and component parts, were left over, what would you see first? Having dies and tooling is a long way from actual new production. You would need not only technical expertise, but a willingness to spend the not inconsiderable amount of money required to "start over". Not impossible, but probably not the first thing you would do, either. You might get around to it eventually (perhaps years later), but wouldn't you do the easiest and least expensive thing first?

That leaves component parts. Manufacturers of the RK for award did not normally produce them "en masse", but in response to specific orders from the PKZ. (Although Hartmann bought his K&Q in later 1944 privately - probably from a shop's "display" section - K&Q did not start producing RK's until after the "ban" on private sales in October, 1941, so there was no real commercial market.) There could be some "parts" around, perhaps even a small "inventory" of good frames and cores for possible future anticipated orders, but just as likely many of these leftover components would be remainders from prior orders which had been rejected for some reason (minor mis-stamping or other damage) which rendered them unsuitable for award use.

Wouldn't you start assembling crosses from leftover parts first? Is that what this cross may be (and, again, I hope that's wrong)? Is that what Weitze found out about this cross?

[StefanK.]

Dear gentlemen!

As the owner of the cross i would like to take the wind out of the those sails, who consider the best conspirancy theories since the Dan Brown novels.


The cross is a very nice Klein und Quenzer, and within the other K&Q i own it has the smallest die-flaw on the left edge of the 12h arm, so its quite uncertain that its post war within the masses of (considered original) K&Q that have a much bigger flaw.

I agree that the frame shows some damadge and i cannot rule out that the original (maybe denazified) core was replaced by another original core. If that happened, it was done very professional because there are no traces of resoldering at the edges. Anyway, its a nice cross with original parts, an original Sprungring and an original piece of ribbon.

All who are after a very cheap and contemporary cross should keep the eyes open on the estand.

many greetings,
Stefan

[walter1010de]

Dear gentlemen!

As the owner of the cross i would like to take the wind out of the those sails, who consider the best conspirancy theories since the Dan Brown novels.


The cross is a very nice Klein und Quenzer, and within the other K&Q i own it has the smallest die-flaw on the left edge of the 12h arm, so its quite uncertain that its post war within the masses of (considered original) K&Q that have a much bigger flaw.

I agree that the frame shows some damadge and i cannot rule out that the original (maybe denazified) core was replaced by another original core. If that happened, it was done very professional because there are no traces of resoldering at the edges. Anyway, its a nice cross with original parts, an original Sprungring and an original piece of ribbon.

All who are after a very cheap and contemporary cross should keep the eyes open on the estand.

many greetings,
Stefan

Well done, Stefan!

[Don D.]

I sold the RK to Weitze for 4750e. I had previously listed it here on the estand. I bought it from Detlev in 06. It came with some papers from a COL. I had forgotten about those and the COA when I listed it and only found those later. Stefan now has those as well. I showed Dietrich high resolution scans of the RK when I got it and he told me it was good (back in 06) Nothing has changed since then that I am aware of. If I had seen this cross listed for 850e I would have grabbed it myself. All the experts not withstanding, it is a fine, heavily worn cross. And to those who think dealer gods don't make mistakes, think again. Just look at most of their inventories and you will find a few. Granted, usually the mistake they make is including a fake as real and not the other way around.

Last thing to think about is this. It was stated that you should never take what is written in books as gospel, well that applies double to what people post on internet forums.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Amen.

[Don D.]

I thought you were deported to Serbia? How's the weather there?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Terrible! It is raining! Trying to get back in via Timbuktu, Thaiti and Manitoba. Long walk trough the Rocky's....

Istvan

[münster]

awesome!

[Don D.]

I'll park a van by the woods with the side door open. The safe signal is I will be drinking a beer while peeing. You can slip in and then give me the load signal, say, a howler monkey cry. I will then drive you across the border.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Danka!
Greetings from the Banat!

Istvan

[münster]

Or shall we say Dobro Jutro?