EKII from the Tirpitz

[bnz41]

Very nice group your showing Wolfgang, I'd love to see more of it.

Very interesting story-I was amazed about how the diver managed to locate the medals in this mess..
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz...n_and_now.html

At first pure luck! After years of diving there the divers learn more and more about the wrecksite and where to dig for different objects. But dont bother asking them where, they never tell you.....

Regarding the comments from VtwinVince and DaveNZ:

No divers are intentionally rummaging through the bones of dead sailors here. The wreck was cleared for bodies during the scrapping, but of course, some could have been burried in the mud and bones will always surface sooner or later. A lot of bodies was also sunk along with the ammunition further out in deeper water, and it's possible that some remains from them can be washed ashore as well over the years. Germans was not very popular in Norway those days....

IMO you guys are ruining this interesting thread with all this talk about looting wargraves and so on, which is far from true in this case. In fact there's no battleship and not even a wreck involved here, just a heap of ruble scattered around the seabed.

And I can promise you, the divers shows as much respect and honorable behavior as they possibly can. No gravediggers there, they are all professional.

Respect.

[bnz41]

It would be interesting to know if your EK2 is marked 66 for Keller.

Unfortunately I can not have the group with me, it is in safe storage. Here is the only (poor) photo I have of the mark.

Hi wolfeknives, could you please check it out when you get the chance?

Would be most interesting to know.

[AndyC]

Hi

As i also have a HSF from Tirpiz and i want to leave a comment here

Those medals that now are found is not from any body, they are not awarded to anyone
They belong to the Tirpitz stock of unawarded medals IMO

Best

Andy

[bnz41]

Thanks for pointing that out, Andy.

You are correct. All the badges and medals have been found within a limited area and most likely have been stored in a closet or something aboard the ship, unawarded, that have vanished over the years, leaving the awards in a pile down in the mud.

Some of the EKI's was even found in their boxes, but the boxes were beyond salvage.

IMO the case would be a whole lot different if the awards was found still attached to uniforms laying on the bottom, but fortunatly this is not the case here.

I love these historical pieces with 100% provenance.

[Simon O.]

You know full well that bones turn up, still today, i've seen some myself. Around 850 sailors of the 971 or so that lost their lives on the 12th Nov. have no known grave, that means only a few of the majority that were trapped in her upturned hull were ever recovered by the salvage teams and given a proper official burial.

It may not be a complete wreck but it is a wreck site with still a lot of debris on the bottom. After the salvage workers were finished, the site SHOULD have been declared a wargrave because that's exactly what it is.

Sure these awards come from an office somewhere on the ship and were unawarded but even personal paperwork, like award documents that belonged to sailors that did die onboard have been recovered.

I know some of those that dive at the site are responsible but that isn't the case for all and basically anyone can dive there and do what the like.

[slayer]

I would have thought this would have been classed as a war grave and protected ?

[bnz41]

You would think so, but no - not the Tirpitz!

As far as I know none of the scapped wrecks along the Norwegian coast are declared wargraves, but I could be wrong?

Other sunken ships, like the german destroyers around Narvik, are all registrered wargraves and of course prohibited area for divers, or treasurehunters.

Unfortunately this doesn't stop low(or no) moral divers(mostly forreign) from looting them.

The only comfort is that so many of them get busted and must pay very heavy fines or even get sentenced to jail, in addition to getting all their finds revoked.

[jul208]

Unfortunately this doesn't stop low(or no) moral divers(mostly forreign) from looting them.

Whats the moral difference between "looting" wrecks in Narvik compared to your Tirpitz crosses? Just curious!

[bnz41]

Come on, do I need to spell it out for you???

Read the previous post again - the Tirpitz is NOT a wargrave!

As far as the items from Tirpitz concerns, IMO this is salvaging - not looting.

[jul208]

Come on, do I need to spell it out for you???

Read the previous post again - the Tirpitz is NOT a wargrave!

As far as the items from Tirpitz concerns, IMO this is salvaging - not looting.

Well I asked you about the moral difference - nothing else!!!

[bnz41]

If you're not man enough to figure that out for yourselves, well then you're probably one of those who's lacking such moral qualitys?

Since it seems this thread cant stay on topic, the pics has been removed.

End of discussion!

[Flemming]

the pics has been removed.

I know it is yours picture, but what you did here, is why I hate the ability to use picture hosting site, or just the use of external links for picture.

Many fine threads have been ruined by removing of the pictures.

/Flemming

[bnz41]

I know, it's the same with other forums too, and it's to bad when good threads gets ruined for the many, by a few intellectuals who cant stand that someone has got hold of something they can never possess.

I'm very sorry for removing the pics, but it's for the best, I dont want a big dispute over moral standards.

I just wanted to show this very nice cross to fellow collectors for comments, but hey, look what happened.....

[Jon Fish]

I dont know why WAF doesn't ban hosted pics, wanna post a pic?- pay the $25 and become a member then there will be no more runied threads!

[bnz41]

With all due respect, this thread was ruined long before I removed the pics.

As for the membership, I'm thinking about it....