800 marked KC

[Dietrich Maerz]

Steve,

as part of the "cackle" (which includes -by the way - Gordon in this case) please let me ask you what you think speaks for this cross?
We have established by now that this particular cross does not correspond to the eight known genuine examples, agreed? It is correct to say that the word "fake" is maybe too harsh and I will restrain myself in the future to wording as " Does not comply with known originals at this point in time" to present an open mind to everything and to not open myself to " "expert" bashing".

Anyhow, what is your thought process in prooving or at least to open a discussion about the genuity of this cross? We are on a level field here, we are all working only from pictures. Sergey will have the best starting point since he has the actual cross in hand.

Awaiting the discussion.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

An interesting example. I'm surprised the caggle did not attack this cross for the ubiquitous inane clatter "dipping donut", "dipping donut"? There are various explainations as to why this RK may be good. Just because it does not fit this groups perceptions of the known makers, does not automatically rule it a fake. If Mr. Jenkins were to post one of his famous RKs, I might argue that it is a well made fake not worthy of a farthing.

If the cross does not meet the specs of crosses currently known by "the so-called EXPERTS", say so? There is no shame in not knowing. Don't start with the fake business unless you are dead sure of your facts. I would say that Mr. Gordon Williamson is probably the only expert in this crowd. He has probably seen more crosses and pictures of RKs that the group of you could ever dream up. I don't hear him making these specious allegations about what might be a good cross, or not a good cross. If you don't like it, no one is asking you to buy it? I probably would not buy anything you were selling.

Cheers ,
Steve

Your attitude, not appreciated here. Someone must have pissed in your soup, eh?

He asked for opinions. He got them. Maybe not an outright known fake but I seriously doubt anyone is going to pony up big bucks for an unknown. That's the real world Steve. We are tired of eating fakes and your attitude is not going to cause anyone to put any money down on unknowns.

It may have escaped you that the market is flooded with fakes. If it has, wake up and smell the bacon.

"Cheers"

[Dietrich Maerz]

Your attitude, not appreciated here. Someone must have pissed in your soup, eh?

"Cheers"

Brian,

true, but in the end only the proper argument counts and speaks for itself. So let's wait for that.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Too late Steve, I already got you quoted.

[Peter Wiking]

Peter Persanally I think it is incorrect method to compare EK2 and KC.

I´m comparing the quality. In this case the Knight Cross posted is of less quality than expected from this high award.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Dietrich Maerz]

Since both words were unknown to me I looked the final version up:


Cackle:

1. [n] a loud laugh suggestive of a hen's cackle
2. [n] noisy talk
3. [n] the sound made by a hen after laying an egg
4. [v] emit a loud, unpleasant kind of laughing
5. [v] squawk shrilly and loudly, characteristic of hens
6. [v] talk or utter in a cackling manner; "Hello!," the women cackled when they saw the movie star step out of the limousine.

So we know what we are talking about. Actually, I think neither of those definitions applies to what I meant with my initial comment of "No good".

Dietrich

[Brian S]

I don't see any depth to the 1813. Was hoping the quality would speak for itself. Maybe it's the lack of angle on the shot but I just don't see the quality in this core.

I think if he had called us a "gaggle of experts" that would have been more proper vernacular. Anyone looking to insult in the future, check with me, I'll be happy to help you out.

[Steve B]

RKs Are They Real Or Are They Memorex?????


Gentlemen, Gentlemen:
Ah Brian: You are right, I do know how little wisdom there is in the world that is ruled. Although I would not say it in the context of "my son" or grasshopper?
And no, no one has urinated in my soup. However, one must be a bit more judicious in making pronouncements about someone's collectibles. I would venture to say that none of you plucked your allegedly "good" RKs from the necks of dead Knights Cross winners? How do you know that your RKs are really originals? How many of you can say with any degree of certainty that the veteran did not make up a story on how he got the coveted RK, or the German family got their cross they are selling? Some of you might actually have the real thing? However, as I recall from a Charlie Chan movie line: "Mind like parachute, work best when open". I'm sorry that I don't agree with your pronouncements that this is a probable fake. If the size, weight and general appearance fit the requirements, it might well be good. If my disagreement with your collective wisdom causes some irritation, I certainly apologize to you for any slight. But I do not apologize for strongly disagreeing with your views that this RK can be described automatically as a fake. I think that this is the attitude that is destroying the hobby, not a view that challenges your dismissals out of hand of what may or may not be a legit. RK. None of us know it all, or who even made each and every Knights Cross? You can speak to what you know, but not what you are not aware of? Otherwise, you were born 70 years too late, and should have joined the group that burned the books in Berlin?

Respectfully and Collegially,

Steve

[Dietrich Maerz]

Steve,

all OK what you say and I hear you. But now let's start a productive process.

What makes you think this is or might be a real one? And what is the process behind your thinking?

I understand what you say above. However, it is not quite true. The mentioned eight cross types are traceable to actual RK winners and from the comparison of 'unknown' crosses to thoses known ones one can exclude a fake. This was the process applied here. Now this one might be (in your opinion it is) genuine and based on what in your opinion is that so?

Unfortunately, in our hobby it is guilty unless prooven innocent. This is not because we are so high nosed "experts" or "know-alls", this is because on every given day you can buy an "unknown" RK on Ebay for all kinds of price range. I guess you don't buy those either?

What is the process of proving this cross to be a good one?

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Well Steve, there are other ways to come to terms with reality. One is approach with a little bit less of an attitude and just ask. But, OK, grasshopper, my son, my uncle was an RK winner. So, I know what one RK looks like. Gordon has been interviewing German vets for years. You see enough of the same exact RK at enough homes of these vets, you know something must be right.

"Stories of RKs taken off the necks of dead Germans for proof."

And how quickly you put down the established proof of good RKs and yet are willing to believe in this one because it weighs in between a wide band of tolerance. That's just not following your line of skeptical logic. So your logic is faulty so to is no doubt your motive for jumping in here.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Brian,

I know what you think!
I wanted to know what Steve thinks is the right way to proove this cross. This is a discussion forum, not an "I have an opinion and that's it"-Forum. I guess that's what really separates us from some "other" enterprises.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Brian,

I know what you think!
I wanted to know what Steve thinks is the right way to proove this cross. This is a discussion forum, not an "I have an opinion and that's it"-Forum. I guess that's what really separates us from some "other" enterprises.

Dietrich

Then fill in the spaces Dietrich. What makes this cross real? The weight? The silver toning? Come on. You haven't seen 30 year uncleaned low quality silver that's burnished practically black? Without provenance I promise you you'll find lots of great WWII German awards that we know are fakes.

We can't prove the rounder is real no matter good it looks. That's not proof.

[Peter Wiking]

Sergey.
Can you tell us where this cross comes from ?

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[ChrisJ]

Sigh....

If Mr. Jenkins were to post one of his famous RKs, I might argue that it is a well made fake not worthy of a farthing.

Mr. Gordon Williamson is probably the only expert in this crowd. He has probably seen more crosses and pictures of RKs that the group of you could ever dream up. I don't hear him making these specious allegations about what might be a good cross, or not a good cross. If you don't like it, no one is asking you to buy it? I probably would not buy anything you were selling.

Cheers ,
Steve

Well... you have really got me there Steve (is it?). Am I missing something ?
My post was that this cross does not meet the criteria for known originals, but does meet those of known copies..... dont think that this is too far stretched is it ?
Regarding claims to be an expert, I make not claims to this at all.... but two experts have given an opinion on this cross, Gordon and Pieter who really ARE experts in this field..and both agree that this one is not original pre 1945.
(and dont worry, I wont be selling you anything).

[Dave Kane]

I have been thinking all afternoon about the 'wisdom' in Steve B's commentary...I'll paraphrase: Is it real or Memorex?....Plucked from the neck of dead German....the so-called Experts....


Well, after all, I began to think that this Knight's Cross might NOT be a fake but yet another that has been overlooked for six decades!!!

What do you 'experts' think about this....

Offers over $50.00 gladly accepted!!


Dave