S&L Ritterkreuz Question

[Leroy]

There is a set of O&S pictured in Gordon Williamson's book as a wartime set by an unknown maker, which has Oakleaves which are the same as S&L's (with the "vein flaw") but with Swords which have 7 "dots" in the hilts as, opposed to 8 in the S&L. I have one of those sets and have wondered if it could possibly be by Deumer. I have no way of knowing if they are wartime or postwar, but they are die-struck and the quality is actually better than the very best, supposedly earliest 1957, sets by S&L. Bob - do you know what the postwar sets from Deumer looked like?

[Bob Hritz]

There is a set of O&S pictured in Gordon Williamson's book as a wartime set by an unknown maker, which has Oakleaves which are the same as S&L's (with the "vein flaw") but with Swords which have 7 "dots" in the hilts as, opposed to 8 in the S&L. I have one of those sets and have wondered if it could possibly be by Deumer. I have no way of knowing if they are wartime or postwar, but they are die-struck and the quality is actually better than the very best, supposedly earliest 1957, sets by S&L. Bob - do you know what the postwar sets from Deumer looked like?

Unfortunately I do not know what Deumer Oak Leaves and Swords looked like. I just wonder if they used old wartime dies, or if they created new dies.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

And I am trying to "work backwards" by trying to find out what a Deumer 1957 version RK (if they actually made one) looks like.

[streptile]

And I am trying to "work backwards" by trying to find out what a Deumer 1957 version RK (if they actually made one) looks like.

Since the discovery, some years ago, that the so-called 1. Pattern and 2. Pattern 57er RK cores were actually used contemporaneously right from the very beginning of RK production in 1957, there has been some speculation that one core may have been Deumer's, and one may have been S&L's (the two "major" players in 57er EKs). All the frames seem to be S&Ls, but admittedly I have not done close comparisons of which frame type (A, B, C) was used with which core type (1. Pattern, 2. Pattern). A thorough study may tell us something.

For what it's worth, Geißler calls the 2. Pattern a "Deumer RK."

In support of Geißler's assertion, I think that the "1939" in the obverse date of a 2. Pattern 57er RK really looks like a Deumer design, whereas the "1939" in a 1. Pattern core looks like an S&L design. Compare the date styles to the known Deumer and S&L 1957 EK1 cores and you'll see what I mean. A complication is that S&L produces 2. Pattern-cored 57er RKs to this day, but WAF member Markus has developed a theory regarding this issue (which he may have since revised or abandoned given its age) which may be read in THIS thread.


From a 1958 publication:

[Leroy]

Trevor- I think the 1st and 2nd pattern cores were in use very close in time to each other and perhaps even, as you suggest, together at the same time from the beginning; however, based merely on the pieces I have seen (which may not be enough on which to form a valid opinion), I have seen the second pattern core used only very, very rarely in "normal B" frames, much more frequently in "flawed B" frames and, very, very frequently in "C" type frames, which may indicate some time frame of use.

It would make sense to me that if a company was involved in RK production during the war, and was still active in 1957, it would use (if at all possible) the same frame types it had previously used. That's one of the reasons I'm trying to ID the maker of the cross in my Post #280. Further, it would make some sense that it might be a good idea to look at all types of 57 RK's, and determine their makers, to see what frames, if any, we don't recognize already, in the off chance we may discover some previously unknown wartime maker(s).

[Leroy]

Cruising the intenet sites, I visited the Staegemeir site for the first time in a while. There you can see several examples of the "best" postwar RK's for sale (as real of course), including not only the "Rounder", but a purported "Zimmermann" (which it is not) and some S&L's. In the photos, the S&L's (simply because of their design, IMO) look the best, but they are still postwar assemblies from the 1957 and earlier period. The quality is OK (and they are photographed to look better than they are), but if you look closely, you will see that there is no real frosting as should be expected and the work is substandard (although I would think they have been worked on "in house" a bit, especially in the ring area). THESE are the crosses which plague our hobby and it would pay anyone who has the slightest interest in these to take a look. I would love to have an "in hand" look at these, but I sure don't want to pay $8000-10,000 for that privilege.

[Leroy]

Just bringing this back to the top to confirm that I did, as promised, bring the "14 denter" cross to the MAX for Dietrich to see. He measured and photographed it. It does, in fact, have 14 dents, and, according to Dietrich, is of very high quality. He confirmed that, to him, it was not a question of whether it had been made in the 50's, 60's or later, but whether it was made during the war or in 1946. The frosting is the same painted type as used on the 935-4 and 800-4 (and also some standard "A" award types). The paint has not yet been SEM tested, but I told Dietrich that I would send it to him at some point for that follow-up.

My personal view is that, having 14 dents, the frame was struck before the 935-4 and 800-4 frames, and so those frames do not represent the first "B" frames.

[AFF96]

Hi Gentry, Will you re-post the subject RK?
Thanks!!
Greg

[Leroy]

Hi, Greg,
I'm still at work now, but tonight I'll post some newer photos of the "dent row". In the meantime, look at Post #'s 6, 13, 17, 18, 19 and 21 in this thread.
Best,
Gentry

[AFF96]

Hi, Greg,
I'm still at work now, but tonight I'll post some newer photos of the "dent row". In the meantime, look at Post #'s 6, 13, 17, 18, 19 and 21 in this thread.
Best,
Gentry

Perfect!!
Thanks!!
Greg

[Leroy]

Here you go, Greg. First, Robert's excellent comparison, then (below) a newer photo just before the MAX.

[AFF96]

Sure looks very interesting to me....
Thanks!
Greg

[Leroy]

2 more.

[AFF96]

Showing my ignorance, my S&L 935 I've posted has a dent row as well? There's 14 as well??
Thanks!
Greg

[Leroy]

... my S&L 935 I've posted has a dent row as well?

As do all "B" types. The 935-4's and 800-4's , which have 13 "dents", were thought to represent the first "B" frames stamped. This one, with 14, would seem to indicate that something came before the 935-4 and 800-4 frames.