S&L Ritterkreuz Question

[Leroy]

By the theory of two RK working dies at the same time, we would probably see crosses with A&B frames together, .... or you think S&L must had two separate facilities for A frames RKs and B frames RKs so no "contamination", ....not likely.

We have seen crosses with unflawed "A" on one side and "B" on the other. "emedals" sold one (or at least a possible one, with a definite 6-9 bridge flaw and a posssible dent row) just several months ago and it was discussed on this Forum. Similarly, another was posted on GCA a couple of years ago by Dave Tourle. They are not often seen, but I don't know if that's really because there are very few or because, in truth, very few RK's are fully examined, individually, anywhere. We think of forums as the "be all - end all" of collecting, so if it doesn't show up here it doesn't exist. My response to that is: rubbish. Many of the truly serious and long time collectors (and especially insofar as RK's are concerned) don't post on forums at all, or, if they did, they left and/or stopped participating in RK-related discussions in the last few years, tired of being abused or insulted.

There are many people who believe quite earnestly that any "B" cross (other than a 935-4 or 800-4) is automatically postwar (and some who even believe that neither of those types is wartime, either). Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. It all boils down to whether you believe in the "single repaired die" theory. If you do believe that, then you will reject any posssible scenario to the contrary, including any and all provenance a "B" cross could have (again, with the possible exceptions of the 935-4 and 800-4). Just based on my own observations, I believe there was more than one die (which apparently others do, too). I just think that those of us who believe that are not as openly hostile and sarcastic (yet) as the "non-believers".

[AlikN]

...We have seen crosses with unflawed "A" on one side and "B" on the other. "emedals" sold one (or at least a possible one, with a definite 6-9 bridge flaw and a posssible dent row) just several months ago and it was discussed on this Forum. Similarly, another was posted on GCA a couple of years ago by Dave Tourle. They are not often seen.....

The thing that there are very rare examples with both frames is against the theory of a two separate production lines - since the frames are together how those separate lines came a cross?... maybe one line after all. The ones you find with both frames are transitional ones, some leftover "A" frames with a newly made from the "B" dies frames, that is why those very rare and having those in very limited quantities only support the theory of one die damaged and new one at work, I think if both dies were running at the same time from the beginning - A&B crosses would be very common.

...
Many of the truly serious and long time collectors (and especially insofar as RK's are concerned) don't post on forums at all, or, if they did, they left and/or stopped participating in RK-related discussions in the last few years, tired of being abused or insulted......

.... but with 26,725 members here on the forum I think we have seen the majority of it, and those A&B are not common at all.

[Leroy]

.... but with 26,725 members here on the forum I think we have seen the majority of it.........

And not one of them was willing to sell me a nice "B" for $1500"!

[90th Light]

The thing that there are very rare examples with both

.... but with 26,725 members here on the forum I think we have seen the majority of it, and those A&B are not common at all.

I have to support Leroy in his statement that there are some advanced collectors who are not posting on this forum or no longer posting. I can think of 4 or even more here in New Zealand alone. They are not all RK collectors but still very advanced in what they do collect or have. These are amazing collections and most of it directly from veterans in the golden days of "newspaper advertisment" here in New Zealand or I suppose what the Americans call a "motel buy". To date they have never posted on a forum because;

- they do not want to be misquoted, taken out of context or insulted

- worried about security or the world finding out what they have

- do not want to have to try and convince anyone of anything esp. when there is an under-lying presumption that all is known

- just do not use computers as a way of comunicating with the world

In fact I rang one of these collectors the other night to find out more about the how, why and who he got my RK from and more importantly to find out if any of the others which came with it are S&L A's or B's. This was the NZ collector who brought my RK to NZ and he got it from the source so this is of real interest to now try and find out any more if you see what I mean

He told me that every thing is packed away these days, does not collect much any longer but he still has quite a collection, he is just not into it like he once was but had kept the best of the best. When he got a chance he would look them out and his book of the notes he has made about how he aquired each one.

Now I am not holding my breath that this will be any time soon because although I did stress how this was a very topical issue right now with some very advanced & serious collectors of RK's around the world on the case, this did not make much impact on him. He has other priorities in life now and has moved on although the interest in such stuff never dies entirely for any of us.

I mention this as a classic example of the collectors we are not hearing from and yet here is such a collector with some amazing RK's who is adding nothing to our studies yet he got many of his directly from veteran sources and made notes about each at the time.

These are the very RK's & notes that we need, to see what I mean then look at what Bob.H. and Andreas.K. have brought to the study of the S&L, Type B, zinc center with the RK's in their collections and what they found out about where theirs came from. Their crosses are causing a re-think for all and I thank Bob & Andreas for sharing theirs while hoping other collectors will come forward,

Chris

[Leroy]

Chris - Whenever your friend digs out the information, I would be very interested in it.

Alikn- My response to you (although 1000% accurate regarding the lack of response from the vast membership to my offer!) was not the serious response you deserved.

So far as we know, S&L never made a cross stamped with its "L/16" license number, although it was apparently already offering an RK to the trade by the time of the publication of its last catalog, which came out just at the same time the LDO was founded. This catalog has a photograveur image of a cross with an unfinished ring, much closer to what we see on "B" crosses than on "A" crosses. This illustration lends at least some credence to the idea that the "commercial" cross version which had been available to the trade up to that time from S&L was not the version being sold to the PKZ (which, according to Dietrich, had been awarding the "A" version at least since mid-1940, a year before the catalog came out.) The lack of any "L/16" marked cross also tells us that S&L , for some reason, simply ceased production of whatever version it had been making for commercial sale just after that catalog came out. (A sidelight - although there is an "A" cross marked "L/21", just as there is a standard Juncker cross marked "L/13", these crosses have been attributed to attempts by Foerster & Barth and Meybauer, both of whom already had their LDO licenses, to use crosses already approved by the PKZ in order to become, themselves, approved suppliers to the PKZ, which never occurred.They certainly would not have used a flawed "B" for this purpose.) It would have made perfect sense that S&L would maintain segregated production lines if it had one version for the PKZ and another for the commercial trade. Was that version the "B"? I personally believe that it was. After March, 1941, and continuing until some time before February, 1944, no segregation was needed. The "B" cross was history. Only after the "A" die failed did S&L resort again to the "B", the components and dies for which it would have had in storage. The "B'"s combined with unflawed "A"s point directly to apparently very infrequent mix-ups in frames during the early days when they were both being actively produced at the same time. That is why there are no "combos" with a "B" on one side and even a slightly flawed "A" on the other.

[AlikN]

If you want to believe that, it's ok with me, .....I don't ....

...we can start a poll here and see how many of us here on the forum - "not truly serious and long time collectors" believe in the theory of two separate RK lines and that the B die is about as early as an A.

...is there a poll on models of the S&L RKs?

[90th Light]

If you want to believe that, it's ok with me, .....I don't ....

...we can start a poll here and see how many of us here on the forum - "not truly serious and long time collectors" believe in the theory of two separate RK lines and that the B die is about as early as an A.

...is there a poll on models of the S&L RKs?

Fair enough

What is your theory about how the S&L type B's came to exist

How do we now explain the examples which Bob.H. & Andreas.K. have and these can be traced back to the actual Germans who had them before May 1945

There were Type A's made before May 1945 and now we have some Type B's made before May 1945 for sure.

Why were there two types from what appears to be the one company.

I am not trying to be smart and put you on the spot. This is an honest question, if we reject what Leroy has put forward then how do we explain it ?

Chris

[Leroy]

Is this like when they used to throw accused witches into a well and if they survived it proved they were a witch, with supernatural powers, but if they drowned, if proved they were guilty and deserved to die?

Go ahead with the poll. It will be interesting, I'm sure.

P.S. And when you do the poll, make sure you ask how many "B"s the voter has personally handled (0-1, 1-10, 10-20, etc.), so we can have some correlation.

[Jody]

S&L Type B

Hi Gentry,
Can I participate in the poll?

Here is my type B and it was US veteran obtianed. The man claimed it was captured in the Ruhr Pocket. All the other awards he had were 100% legit.

BTW, I have had in my hand a K&Q RK, a Junkcer L/12, Lazy 2, Micro dot, an S&L Type A, an 800 4 (Bob's), and three 935 4 (counting mine) RKs.

Regards,
Jody

[AlikN]

.....

What is your theory about how the S&L type B's came to exist

How do we now explain the examples which Bob.H. & Andreas.K. have and these can be traced back to the actual Germans who had them before May 1945

There were Type A's made before May 1945 and now we have some Type B's made before May 1945 for sure.

....

I already did, ..."A" die was used to some point in time till it got bad, S&L employee saw the flaw progression on what we call "A" die and asked for a new dies - we call it "B" dies, (there is no need for two dies at the same time, not that much in demand - not every wounded was getting a RK) new die was cut from already damaged with a dent row mother hub and all this before '45, that is why there are some war time "B"s and even very rare A&B which supports transition from one die to second, that dent row is a such a small "defect" untrained eye wouldn't even see the difference, and by theory of two dies used at the same time - workers supposedly had to look for the dent row to keep them separate or you suggest two facilities ...if two dies were used at the same time "A&B" RKs would be very common.

Go ahead with the poll. It will be interesting, I'm sure.

P.S. And when you do the poll, make sure you ask how many "B"s the voter has personally handled (0-1, 1-10, 10-20, etc.), so we can have some correlation.

Never done the polls before and afraid to miss something, can someone help.....

[90th Light]

Hi Gentry,
Can I participate in the poll?

Here is my type B and it was US veteran obtianed. The man claimed it was captured in the Ruhr Pocket. All the other awards he had were 100% legit.

BTW, I have had in my hand a K&Q RK, a Junkcer L/12, Lazy 2, Micro dot, an S&L Type A, an 800 4 (Bob's), and three 935 4 (counting mine) RKs.

Regards,
Jody

Hello Jody, what are the markings on yours and is the center ferrous or non-ferrous ?

Chris

[90th Light]

[QUOTE=Alikn;4100902]I already did, ..."A" die was used to some point in time till it got bad, S&L employee saw the flaw progression on what we call "A" die and asked for a new dies - we call it "B" dies, (there is no need for two dies at the same time, not that much in demand - not every wounded was getting a RK) new die was cut from already damaged with a dent row mother hub and all this before '45, that is why there are some war time "B"s and even very rare A&B which supports transition from one die to second, that dent row is a such a small "defect" untrained eye wouldn't even see the difference, and by theory of two dies used at the same time - workers supposedly had to look for the dent row to keep them separate or you suggest two facilities ...if two dies were used at the same time "A&B" RKs would be very common.


Thanks Alikn,

where does your theory fit in the non-ferrous centers like Bob.H's & Andreas.K's because they would have to be 44/ 45 yet I believe that Andreas example was purshased earlier than that in the war was it not and I think this is the basis for what Leroy is putting forward in his theory.

It is a hard one but some S&L Type B's seem to have come a long way towards now being recognised as a legimate RK made before May 45 out of this regardless of whose theory is right or wrong,

Chris

[Jody]

S&l rk

Hello Jody, what are the markings on yours and is the center ferrous or non-ferrous ?

Chris

Hi Chris,
My RK is 935 4 (upside down) and has an iron center. I hope it is good I have around $40 invested in it. The loop is marked 935 too.

Regards,
Jody

[90th Light]

Hi Chris,
My RK is 935 4 (upside down) and has an iron center. I hope it is good I have around $40 invested in it. The loop is marked 935 too.

Regards,
Jody

$40 !!!!

I known that Dietrich's findings and model crashed the price of Type B's for a while but $40 is not taking it on the chin it is taking it on the bottom of the toenail

$40 is one hell of a price to pay for one of those..........................not,

Chris

[Jody]

S&l

$40 !!!!

I known that Dietrich's findings and model crashed the price of Type B's for a while but $40 is not taking it on the chin it is taking it on the bottom of the toenail

$40 is one hell of a price to pay for one of those..........................not,

Chris

Hi Chris,
Of course I bought it around 32+ years ago.

Regards,
Jody