S&L Ritterkreuz Question

[AlikN]

.....In the museum of Lüdenscheid are at the moment two KC shown: one came from Deumer and one from Steinhauer according to the museum....

If Deumer would use S&L's dies how can museum employee tell which one is which, since those would be visialy identical. Can someone go there and take a pictures of those?

How can we sure that Schickle had his own die for the KC? Perhaps he was supported with a die from a maker of the very first days ... DEUMER.

Btw the the Schickle sales catalog from June 1940 doesn't show a KC in it! If i had been a proud producer of germany's highest honour award i had mentioned it in my catalog - like Deumer did it.

Perhaps Schickle was the re-seller.

As far as I remember there is a pictures of RK on pages that came with OS catalogs and date detail looks similar to what is know as OS RK .
... maybe those silver frames - silver content marked OS's RKs are Deumer's production, someone was in business making '57 RK with OS frames while OS was out off business in early years of war.

[Leroy]

If Deumer would use S&L's dies how can museum employee tell which one is which, since those would be visialy identical. Can someone go there and take a pictures of those?

A good point, Alikn!

In the posting of material on GCA there is included an actual photo of the cross in the Museum which is attributed by them to Deumer. The cross is...... a ZIMMERMANN!

[Andreas Klein]

The museum had a note on the crosses that they got them from Deumer and Steinhauer.

@Gentry

Am i right that Zimmermann crosses look like Godet crosses?

[Andreas Klein]

As far as I remember there is a pictures of RK on pages that came with OS catalogs and date detail looks similar to what is know as OS RK .
... maybe those silver frames - silver content marked OS's RKs are Deumer's production, someone was in business making '57 RK with OS frames while OS was out off business in early years of war.

These extra pictures doesn't belong to the Schickle catalog imo ... imo they are showing the photo of a shop window. There is besides "as said so" no real evidence that they belong together.

[Leroy]

The museum had a note on the crosses that they got them from Deumer and Steinhauer.

@Gentry

Am i right that Zimmermann crosses look like Godet crosses?

Andreas - Yes, they are the same, except for different core paint. In the past, it has been thought that Zimmermann supplied the parts to Godet, but if the cross in Ludenscheid really is from Deumer that would create a brand new source.

[Robert T.]

If Deumer would use S&L's dies how can museum employee tell which one is which, since those would be visialy identical. Can someone go there and take a pictures of those?

I would rather visit Deumer's die storage room....
http://www.eppi-magazine.com/modules...mid=108&page=0


...The lapel pins, medals, award jewellery and silver accessories from Lüdenscheid had a high sales rate,“ explained Johan Conze, who manages the company together with his brother Fritz Assmann. After the halt in production during the 2nd World War, Deumer was soon able to start up its operations again and expand its product portfolio...

[Leroy]

Someone needs to go to Ludenscheid and get on bended knee and beg to see every wartime used RK die, and every scrap of documentation and correspondence regarding wartime RK's, in the town.

Andreas and Basti and the others who have actually gone () were not specifically looking for RK material, as their interests were focused elsewhere, but STILL discovered wonderful information which they have generously shared with the collecting community.

Everyone says "they'll never talk about postwar activities" and probably they won't. SO DON'T ASK THEM. Ask only about what information and material they still have regarding the crosses they made during the war. Maybe they won't want to talk about that either, but it sure wouldn't hurt to ask (which apparently no modern "RK specialist" has done). If you can find out what was made during the war, that will tell you enough to start with. Show them "A"s, show them the "4" series, show them varieties of other "B"s, show them Schickles, show them Zimmermanns, show them 3/4 rings. Then come back and write a completely honest, no agenda, let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may,
professional serious article. If there are no answers to some question, that's fine...but at least the attempt would have been made.

I nominate Dietrich and Pieter Verbruggen.........*

*And I will go along to referee and interface with their highly skeptical lawyers.

[Leroy]

Maybe we should do a quick postwar status check:

1.) Klein & Quenzer - Reported damaged in bombing, but not destroyed. At least one cross observed with 1957 core (maybe old cross dismantled, then re-assembled?). Seemingly lots around. Dies (according to Bob Hritz and others) known to have been sold in fairly modern times.

2.) Juncker - Facility confirmed, from U.S. Archives documents, as bombed to rubble in February, 1945. Perhaps bombed slightly earlier, but unproven. Status of dies: probably destroyed but that is not proven, for sure. Proponents of "destroyed dies" idea say no cross observed to date with flaws greater than on the "2" version. Company certainly active again in the 50's and 60's as maker of awards. Reported, in Gordon Williamson's book, to have made RK's after the war, marked L/12, using the wartime dies of another company, which in fact looked better than their wartime pieces, but there is no documentation for this. It should be noted that Williamson reports that Juncker was alleged to have used, postwar, dies from Godet.

3.) S&L - Never bombed. Confirmed to have manufactured 1957 version RK's using, at first, very slightly flawed "B" frames, then later heavily flawed "B" frames, then finally "C" frames. Swastika version crosses using these same frames exist, with cores (at least in early models) which are identical to wartime cores. (Swastika cored crosses using "S&L frames" have also been seen which employ an "S&L" core with a "dimple" in the middle of the reverse core, a core which appears to match a Schickle core, and a core with a swastika which has a small "chunk" missing from the corner of one of the swastika arms.) Whether or not other companies had access to, or were provided with, S&L RK dies or components is totally unknown (as is the case with the dies or components of all other "recognized" manufacturers, as well).

4.) Godet - Perhaps never a real maker, but rather an assembler of parts from another maker, thought (at least until now) to be Zimmermann. No postwar production ever proven.

5.) Zimmermann - Bombed. No postwar production ever proven. See above re: supply to Godet, and below re: possible Deumer connection.

6.) Deumer - Believed to have produced 1957 version RK's. Now known to have been involved, at least to some degree, in early wartime RK production (even though this was previously denied by the company, which said it was only a retailer of completed crosses from others). Cross attributed to Deumer in Ludenscheid museum is a Zimmermann. What effect this has on 2, 4 and 5 above is unknown at present.

7.) Otto Schickle - The "mystery" company. Stripped of its LDO license and inventory available for purchase by other companies in mid-1941. Several 1957 version RK's with Schickle frames exist, although they are not really common.

8.) Unknown maker of 3/4 ring RK - No 1957 versions known to exist and no suspected postwar manufacture proven. (Interestingly, the 3/4 ring, which was certainly awarded wartime, appears to show up in some early 50's war movies.)

9.) Deschler - Named by both Bowen and Williamson as producer of wartime RK's. Example shown in Williamson's book appears to have beading flaws which match those seen on S&L frames, but photo is not clear enough to tell for sure if they match flaws on the late "A" frame or the late "B" frame, or if they are unique (Dietrich - please look closely at this). Company not bombed and was still, in the 70's at least, making awards and trophies, including some made for the U.S. military. RK status , both wartime and postwar, unknown.

10.) Other companies with their own RK dies (and/or dies or components obtained from others) - status totally unknown. (The "Sedlatzek" cross, the cross shown on page 271 of Williamson's book, etc., etc.)

And you think you were confused before.....

[Les50]

So really any type of Knights Cross could be possibly postwar made, it is just a question of how large that possiblity is and what each collector believes?
Les

[Leroy]

So really any type of Knights Cross could be possibly postwar made, it is just a question of how large that possiblity is and what each collector believes?
Les

Until we know with certainty (or as close to certainty as we can achieve) who had (or still has) access to which dies (and/or component parts made from those dies), what their technical skill levels (and financial motivations) are, whether "mother" dies existed (or still exist) and the limitations, if any, on die repair, the fundamental answer is, unfortunately, "yes". The same holds true for the higher grades, too. If, by example, Klein (or someone else) still has the dies and tools for the Brilliants, and workers with great skill, what could be done IF someone wanted to do it?

That's a bleak view and, very fortunately, we are still in a hobby where the financial rewards are not yet sufficient to put us at the level of what transpires on a daily basis in the fine art and antiquities field. But we need to arm ourselves against that day and the only way to do that is to amass all the correct knowledge we can while we still can. Someone may thank us later.

[Les50]

Until we know with certainty (or as close to certainty as we can achieve) who had (or still has) access to which dies (and/or component parts made from those dies), what their technical skill levels (and financial motivations) are, whether "mother" dies existed (or still exist) and the limitations, if any, on die repair, the fundamental answer is, unfortunately, "yes". The same holds true for the higher grades, too. If, by example, Klein (or someone else) still has the dies and tools for the Brilliants, and workers with great skill, what could be done IF someone wanted to do it?

That's a bleak view and, very fortunately, we are still in a hobby where the financial rewards are not yet sufficient to put us at the level of what transpires on a daily basis in the fine art and antiquities field. But we need to arm ourselves against that day and the only way to do that is to amass all the correct knowledge we can while we still can. Someone may thank us later.

An honest answer Leroy and for me who has spent a considerable amount of money on a "very possibly" original Knights Cross a little depressing too.
Les

[Rich G]

I can only think whoever made the rounder RK(do we even know?) certainly had the skill and the know-how and in the end was only finally proved fake due to modern paint, etc. I remember examining one and the workmanship was certainly top class, better than Juncker for example.

I would hate to think what would happen if they had access to original dies!


Does anyone know what was the burnt out factory that all those '20' marked RKs were found? Was it a known medal manufacturer?

Rich

[Robert T.]

9.) Deschler - Named by both Bowen and Williamson as producer of wartime RK's. Example shown in Williamson's book appears to have beading flaws which match those seen on S&L frames, but photo is not clear enough to tell for sure if they match flaws on the late "A" frame or the late "B" frame, or if they are unique (Dietrich - please look closely at this). Company not bombed and was still, in the 70's at least, making awards and trophies, including some made for the U.S. military. RK status , both wartime and postwar, unknown.

Gentry,

I compared it to one of your S&l crosses...

[Leroy]

Richard - I think the burned out facility has been reported to be the Zimmermann facilty.

Robert - As always, great job on the photo comparison! Can we agree that the claimed "Deschler" pictured appears to use a late "B" frame? And, if so, what does this have to do, if anything, 1.) with Prosper Keating's story that he was present when the flawed dies were offered for sale in London, and 2.) with the idea that the "C" frames were made using a repaired "B" die?



(As a "side note", and nothing, at this point, for sure related yet to this discussion, can anyone tell me who made the 1957 RK on page 394 of Dietrich's fine book?)

[Robert T.]

One more...