S&L Ritterkreuz Question

[Rich G]

Chris

Andreas Klein's cross shows painted frosting IMO. Not sure about Bob Hirtz's cross but it appears to be etched. Maybe Bob could confirm?

Rich

[90th Light]

Chris

Andreas Klein's cross shows painted frosting IMO. Not sure about Bob Hirtz's cross but it appears to be etched. Maybe Bob could confirm?

Rich

Thanks Richard,

have just had another look at mine and it is etched

will post clearer images when I take a photo of the dent row,

Chris

[90th Light]

Every one should go back and read what Bob Hirtz said about his S&L non-ferrous RK in this thread

"S&L RK.....help please!" started by Francesco on 11-01-2005,

The postings by Bob start at post number 17

and you have to read post number 26 where he talks about having been a detective for too long to be easily taken (Can someone post a link to this)

Interesting that in this thread, Bob's S&L non-ferrous is identified by Dietrich as a Type A yet in post number 31 of this thread Leroy has described it as a Type B. Can someone please clarify if there was a re-evaluation of this S&L cross from the surrender at "Kitzingen" in 45 ?

Sort of sums it all up really,

Chris

[Dietrich Maerz]

have just had another look at mine and it is etched

How can a non silver frame have the real chemical etching?

[90th Light]

How can a non silver frame have the real chemical etching?

My one has got an "800" silver mark on it so I suppose that is how they do it,

Chris

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andreas' doesn't.

[90th Light]

Andreas' doesn't.

thanks Dietrich, that answers my question,

Chris

[Dietrich Maerz]

You should post better pictures of your cross, including the 800 mark. The pictures are not very good, but what I can see, it think it is painted frosting.

[90th Light]

You should post better pictures of your cross, including the 800 mark. The pictures are not very good, but what I can see, it think it is painted frosting.

Well you have certainly handled more than me Dietrich so I take note of your observation and I could be wrong. Will look again tomorrow in the day light and compare with others.

Yes that set of photos certainly did not come out clear. I am trying to arrange something better,

Chris

[Leroy]

I honestly don't know what particular frosting Bob's cross has, or Andreas's cross has or Chris' cross has. I have never held them, so they need to tell us. My guess is "painted" on Bob's and Andreas' and etched on Chris', but that's just a guess based on photos. What are "L/12"s (just for comparison)?

Regardless of that, if someone says that they know with authority that the type of finish used on a commercial cross (for that is what these would have been initially) had to be a certain type, then I will tell them to prove with certainty how they know this. They can't.

Alikn, I see your point, but what on earth makes you think S&L cranked out flawed "A"s for a very long time before looking to the "B"s? This flaw development could easily have happened, from beginning to end, in a single day. There certainly seem to be some flawed "A"s as award pieces, but I have serious doubts that was allowed to continue very long or that very many went through to the PKZ.

My point here is not to criticize anyone's points, which are all things which legitimately should be discussed, but to remind us of what we are talking about. The "B" cross (under my theory) started life as a commercial "shop" copy of an RK. It was not an award cross or intended to be. God only knows what other RK (and other award) commercial copies were marketed, or attempted to be marketed, by companies (plural) before the LDO came in. This subject has never been examined by anyone closely at all, even though the existence of such things was the stated reason for the LDO in the first place.

The only reason we try today to make the "B" fit into the same criteria as we apply to the "A" is because these crosses were falsely sold for years after the war as "award" crosses. They were not crosses intended for award. Once this is realized, maybe we can reevaluate the reality of all this. S&L, as evidenced by the lack of the "L/16" marking, never even made or sold any commercial RK after March, 1941, the founding date of the LDO (although we know from their last catalog that they did before then).

Only the 935-4 and 800-4 were "B" crosses elevated to possible award status and how many of these actually made it into circulation is totally unknown. We have no idea at all. Certainly these types are rare and infrequently encountered. How many were ever even assembled? (By comparison, how many "2" marked Junckers were "proveably" actually awarded? A couple?)

So long as we approach the subject of commercial copy RK's "playing by the same rules" as we apply to award pieces, we will be frustrated. Dietrich and other "purists" do not consider them worth talking about or researching (or collecting), but only things to treat like "red-haired stepchildren". They are not "real" to them. We have hashed this out in other threads ad nauseum, to the point where Dietrich has actually said that crosses sitting in factories at the end of the war and never delivered to the PKZ should not be regarded as "real", simply because they were never delivered.

I'm not playing by those rules anymore. Sorry if that disappoints some people.

[90th Light]

Hello Leroy,

same situation with the "retail duplicate Oaks and Swords"

To date no serious study of those either but yet veterans brought them back and some German service personal may have even worn such a set.

Who knows because so far apart from what V.Bowen & G.Williamson have published, nothing.

The S&L Type B's seem to fall into the same catergory ie "Retail only"

Could you please look at my post number 183 and throw any light on that ?

Chris

[Dietrich Maerz]

It is not true that I don't think that initially for private purchase produced and sold crosses are not worth talking about. Most of the "L/12" were collected form shops, went to the PKZ and were awarded. Same happened with the "L/15" and the "L/52".

There is no difference in quality, finish, style or whatever between the shop samples and the award examples - they are for all the companies the same. No-iron core crosses were awarded, non silver framed crosses were awarded. So that is not the point either.

However, there is (at least for me) a difference between "sanctioned and awarded by the PKZ" and "produced during the Third Reich". But for me this distinction is onlyy important for the RK and higher. And this because the money involved made this field a nice playing ground for all kind of shisters, starting in the early 50s, creating such nice terms as "jeweller copies".

This distinction is not valid with the EK1 and lower and all the other badges were the private sales was allowed. I can't see any difference between the LDO examples and the ones shipped to the PKZ and at least for the EK1 there is no second production line for better or worse pieces. And the numbers were a lot higher!

I still say that the very, very few crosses for private sales made by S&L were also A-Types. Because that is what makes the most sense and is in absolute agreement to what all the other companies did also. And is supported by the award trail.

At the time of the introduction of the LDO there were 512 awardees of the Knights Cross. At least five companies made the Knights Cross at that point in time. Is that a commercial background for a separate production line? At a time when one could produce the EK1 or EK2 or WB in a lot greater numbers?

There seems to be an misunderstanding: I am not saying that the non-iron cored, brass cored, non silver framed and all the other B-Type variations are not real because they were shop samples - I am saying that they are not real because it is my opinion (and opinion only) that they were made after the war.

[Flemming]

If the statement that we have to know B-type awarded because the vet says so, then as Dietrich also mentioned, then the Rounder is also a pre May 1945 cross.
If I remember correctly, there were vet bringbacks of those also. (According to the vet that sold them).

IMO we need more proof then two "advanced" collectors state that their crosses were pre 1945.

/Flemming

[90th Light]

If the statement that we have to know B-type awarded because the vet says so, then as Dietrich also mentioned, then the Rounder is also a pre May 1945 cross.
If I remember correctly, there were vet bringbacks of those also. (According to the vet that sold them).

IMO we need more proof then two "advanced" collectors state that their crosses were pre 1945.

/Flemming

The two vets examples that we have with the Type B are excellent ones however

Not only because of who the collectors involved are but because they have found out where the Type B's were picked up in the war and even identified the Germans involved.

Go and have a look at the thread to which I refer to in post number 183, Bob has even posted pictures of the Germans surrendering to the American who he got his S&L, Type B zinc centered from.

Now how often do any of us here ever get to see that,

Chris

[Leroy]

Again, circles and circles and circles.

Please look at the "Sedlatzek cross" in your book. What does that compare to? Who made it? Why is it not marked with an "L" number?

Have you ever seen a commercial cross other than "L" marked examples which you would acknowledge as a possible pre-LDO produced example made for sale, not award? No - and yet you show the Sedlatzek as an example of "what may be out there"....and then move on. There have been a number of nice crosses shown on this forum (including another which happened to have been shown by Bob Hritz which came from the Milestone collection with provenance from a U.S. vet from Goering's villa) - always condemned as fake. Didn't match what we "know". The vets were always lying.

You say that commercial RK's would be exactly like their award counterparts because it makes no financial sense for them to be otherwise. What ever happened to the commercial idea that someone might want something different, or nicer?

I am sorry, my friend, but I reject this line of thinking and I would like to ask: how many U.S., or British, or Australian or New Zealand veterans did you personally deal with directly in the 50's, 60's and 70's?